The Carcano 6.5x52mm Ammunition

[Charles Collins]

Recently, I was searching for some technical data on the performance of the Carcano 6.5x52mm ammunition. A Wikipedia article stated that: “Ballistically, its performance is very similar to that of the 6.5×54mm Mannlicher–Schönauer.” So, I clicked on the link and found some very interesting information regarding the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer ammo.

It turns out that: ”Walter Dalrymple Maitland "Karamojo" Bell, who shot 1,011 elephants,[3] had a high regard for the 6.5mm Mannlicher–Schoenauer, mainly because the light Mannlicher Schonauer carbines it could be chambered in. He used it for approximately 300 of these kills.”


I have begun reading a book by Bell called “The Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.” It is fascinating to read because he very effectively “transports” the reader to a different time and place. Someone who has the skills and resources should consider making a movie about his adventures. Bell’s preferred method for hunting elephants with this ammo was a shot into the (you guessed it) brain. He preferred that because the elephants that he shot in the brain tended to just fall down dead instantly instead of trying to run off. This helped to avoid spooking the other nearby elephants, so that Bell could sometimes have a chance to take multiple elephants at a time.

What we must consider is the difficulty of a shot to an elephant’s brain. As we can see in the image at the beginning of this article the elephant’s brain is relatively small compared to the size of its head. The brain is located deep inside the elephant’s head. Therefore, a bullet with superior penetrating ability is needed. That is one of the characteristics that both the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer ammo and the 6.5x52mm Carcano ammo have in common. Therefore I suggest that the Carcano 6.5x52mm ammo could have been used by Karamojo Bell, and that he could have gotten similar results to the results that he got using the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer ammo. After all, there is only 2mm difference in length, the weights are almost the same, and the velocities are only slightly different.





More data on the Carcano 6.5x52mm ammo

If the above revelations have piqued your interest, I ran across this article by Dale Myers regarding Lucien Haag’s report on the Carcano 6.5x52mm ammo.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2019/

Dale provides an interesting summary of Haag’s report (which some of you are probably familiar with).

And I found a webpage for Haag’s report for those who might be interested.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/63c2d1976699b1595ac1ac93/t/67dcf7bdb0b2eb463dd4d94c/1742534593753/Part+6-The+Unique+and+Misunderstood+Wound+Ballistics+in+the+John+F.Kennedy+Assassination.pdf

I had previously seen some YouTube video demonstrations by Haag. The above report includes some important information not included in the video demonstrations. Among other things, I think that he does a good job of explaining why the Carcano ammo behaved differently when hitting soft tissue versus hitting a hard skull.

[Charles Collins]

This from Hornady [ammo manufacturer]:

https://static.hornady.media/site/hornady/files/obsolete-data/6-5-x-52mm-carcano.pdf

Carcano rifles have become popular collector firearms again, recent imports
and the availability of accurate information, ammunition and components have
helped to make it more attractive. The first of the 6.5 mm military cartridges to
appear was near the end of the 19th century. The Carcano’s history has been
plagued by a great deal of negative press and criticism, mainly the result of
misinformation and lack of understanding of the design.
The Carcano’s action design is by no means weak, tests performed by P.O.
Ackley and several others were unable to cause action failure. However, surplus
rifles should all be thoroughly inspected by a competent gunsmith before firing.
Carcano rifles are built with a .257" bore and .268" grooves. This was done to
extend barrel life. The rifles are, by virtue of this, not generally accurate with
conventional .264" 6.5 mm bullets. Hornady now produces a .267" 160 grain
Round Nose bullet designed specifically for Carcano rifles. We have achieved
excellent accuracy with this bullet and the loads listed here, our best results
came from H 414 and WIN 760.
Historically, Norma has been the only source for Boxer primed Carcano
cartridge cases, these cases have an extractor groove that is too narrow and
does not function properly in the stripper clip and eject with difficulty. Cases
recently made available by Privi Partizan have the proper groove dimension and
functioned flawlessly in our test rifle.


I believe that the above helps explain why some folks consider the Carcano to be undesirable. However, as stated above, with the correct ammo these rifles tend to have excellent accuracy.

[Lance Payette]

I note that J&G Sales in Prescott, from which I've bought guns in the past, has Carcanos in reasonable condition for around $200.

But this one, tricked out to match Oswald's, went for $2,345: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/rifles---italian-sporting/jfk-oswald-repro-rifle---scope-carcano-model-1938-ts-6-5x52mm-carbine-c-r-wwii-extremely-similar-to-the-one-used-by-lee-harvey-oswald.cfm?gun_id=101591646

Another, documented to be from Klein's, had an estimated auction value of $2,500 to $5,000: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/50/3373/carcano-1938-carbine-65-mm

Not as much as I waste on golf clubs, I suppose.

[Charles Collins]

I note that J&G Sales in Prescott, from which I've bought guns in the past, has Carcanos in reasonable condition for around $200.

But this one, tricked out to match Oswald's, went for $2,345: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/rifles---italian-sporting/jfk-oswald-repro-rifle---scope-carcano-model-1938-ts-6-5x52mm-carbine-c-r-wwii-extremely-similar-to-the-one-used-by-lee-harvey-oswald.cfm?gun_id=101591646

Another, documented to be from Klein's, had an estimated auction value of $2,500 to $5,000: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/50/3373/carcano-1938-carbine-65-mm

Not as much as I waste on golf clubs, I suppose.

Yes, the ones that are the same model as C399 have become rare due to collectors wanting them. I will likely settle for one that is similar enough for experimentation and leave the collectible ones alone. It might be different if I was loaded with a lot more money.   

[Charles Collins]

I have some interesting passages from the “Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter” book by Bell. But first this video showing the Cape Buffalo might set the tone for some of what Bell wrote about his adventures.

Hopefully you watched the video and might be able to better appreciate this description by Bell from pages 134-135 of his book (referenced above):

Speaking personally, my greatest successes have been obtained with the 7 mm. Rigby-Mauser or 276, with the old round-nose solid, weighing, I believe, 200 grs. It seemed to show a remarkable aptitude for finding the brain of an elephant. This holding of a true course I think is due to the moderate velocity, 2,300 ft., and to the fact that the proportion of diameter to length of bullet seems to be the ideal combination.
.
.
.

I often had the opportunity of testing this extraordinary little weapon on other animals than elephant. Once, to relate one of the less bloody of its killings, I met at close range, in high grass, three bull buffalo. Having at the moment a large native following more or less on the verge of starvation, as the country was rather gameless, I had no hesitation about getting all three. One stood with head up about 10 yds. away and facing me, while the others appeared as rustles in the grass behind him. Instantly ready as I always was, carrying my own rifle, I placed a -276 solid in his chest. He fell away in a forward lurch, disclosing another immediately behind him and in a similar posture. He also received a 276, falling on his nose and knees. The third now became visible through the commotion, affording a chance at his neck as he barged across my front. A bullet between neck and shoulder laid him flat. All three died without further trouble, and the whole affair lasted perhaps four or five seconds.

Another point in favor of the -276 is the shortness of the motions required to reload. This is most important in thick stuff. If one develops the habit by constant practice of pushing the rifle forward with the left-hand while the right-hand pulls back the bolt and then vice versa draws the rifle towards one while closing it, the rapidity of fire becomes quite extraordinary.



The bolt action 7mm rifle and ammo Bell was using was only slightly larger than the bolt action Carcano 6.5x52mm rifle. Bell’s account describes three accurate shots in a very short period of time. And apparently Bell was in a standing, offhand position. Anyway, I find this quite impressive. Especially considering the danger involved hunting these large creatures.   

[Jack Nessan]

Yes, the ones that are the same model as C399 have become rare due to collectors wanting them. I will likely settle for one that is similar enough for experimentation and leave the collectible ones alone. It might be different if I was loaded with a lot more money.   

If you are attempting to set up a replica. The Japan no. 2 scope mount is next to impossible to find. A Weaver N2 scope mount will work the same. The sling is from a 1950’s M13 airforce shoulder holster, and the correct scope has the knurled end like Rock Island, not smooth like the Gunsinternational. Any machine shop can mount it for you. Correctly mounted the scope is not parallel to the top of the rifle but offset to the side. Which is interesting as to what is considered to be properly sighted in on converging lines.

Finding a Hollywood scope is expensive and the scope is of such poor quality shooting the rifle with it on risks damaging the scope from the recoil. Any inexpensive Weaver scope will work just to have one mounted on it.

 

[Charles Collins]

If you are attempting to set up a replica. The Japan no. 2 scope mount is next to impossible to find. A Weaver N2 scope mount will work the same. The sling is from a 1950’s M13 airforce shoulder holster, and the correct scope has the knurled end like Rock Island, not smooth like the Gunsinternational. Any machine shop can mount it for you. Correctly mounted the scope is not parallel to the top of the rifle but offset to the side. Which is interesting as to what is considered to be properly sighted in on converging lines.

Finding a Hollywood scope is expensive and the scope is of such poor quality shooting the rifle with it on risks damaging the scope from the recoil. Any inexpensive Weaver scope will work just to have one mounted on it.

Thanks Jack. I would most likely want to mount a scope. I will keep that mount, etc in mind.