Strictly FWIW, but kind of interesting

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Online Charles Collins

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Re: Strictly FWIW, but kind of interesting
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2025, 11:53:58 AM »
My guess is that this person is an equipment snob.**  And that he is just repeating the misguided opinions of some CT authors regarding the capabilities of the Carcano rifle. I think that he would be surprised to learn the following test results:


A more appropriate analogy would be the 100-yard test done by Robert Frazier after attempting to zero the scope at that distance. If we average the size of the four groups of 3-shots per group, we have an average group of 3.69-inches in diameter. Since 1-inch equals 1-MOA at 100-yards we have an average 3.69-MOA size group at 100-yards. That indicates that it is a pretty precise rifle. Especially so for a surplus WW-II era rifle. And even more so considering that these shots were fired as fast as possible with accuracy being a lower priority than speed.


**Reading the autobiography, and other works, of Chris Kyle (American Sniper) we learn that the shooting equipment they use is typically some of the finest available. Chris’ longest confirmed kill was at a distance of about 1600-yards (just under a mile). The average distance of his kills was about 400-yards. Dealey Plaza shots were less than 100-yards (~265-feet for the longest). The Carcano rifle was more than capable of those shots. 

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Strictly FWIW, but kind of interesting
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2025, 01:35:50 PM »
The difficulty was not the shot. The difficulty was in the time frame.

Carlos Hathcock:

"Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did". (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90).

“trying to duplicate the feat of 3 shots in 5.6 seconds on a moving target in a high to low angle. He said after several tries they simply could not duplicate it”   
 
Three shots in 5.6 seconds are what was not duplicated.

 

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Strictly FWIW, but kind of interesting
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2025, 02:44:43 PM »
The difficulty was not the shot. The difficulty was in the time frame.

Carlos Hathcock:

"Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did". (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90).

“trying to duplicate the feat of 3 shots in 5.6 seconds on a moving target in a high to low angle. He said after several tries they simply could not duplicate it”   
 
Three shots in 5.6 seconds are what was not duplicated.


The Warren Commission did not say that. Here is what the WC actually said in its report (page 117):

Time Span of shots

Witnesses at the assassination scene said that the shots were fired within a few seconds, with the general estimate being 5 to 6 seconds. 365   That approximation was most probably based on the earlier publicized reports that the first shot struck the President in the neck, the second wounded the Governor and the third shattered the President’s head, with the time span from the neck to the head shots on the President being approximately 5 seconds.   As previously indicated, the time span between the shot entering the back of the President’s neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds.  If the second shot missed, then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots.  If either the first or third shots missed, then a minimum of 2.3 seconds (necessary to operate the rifle) must be added to the time span of the shots which hit, giving a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots.   If more than 2.3 seconds elapsed between a shot that missed and one that hit, then the time span would be correspondingly increased.


The Warren Commission did not form a conclusion regarding which shot might have missed. Therefore the WC only concluded that the time span of the shots could have been from 4.8 to 7.9-seconds, or even more, depending on which shot actually did miss.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Strictly FWIW, but kind of interesting
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2025, 03:04:00 PM »

The Warren Commission did not say that. Here is what the WC actually said in its report (page 117):

Time Span of shots

Witnesses at the assassination scene said that the shots were fired within a few seconds, with the general estimate being 5 to 6 seconds. 365   That approximation was most probably based on the earlier publicized reports that the first shot struck the President in the neck, the second wounded the Governor and the third shattered the President’s head, with the time span from the neck to the head shots on the President being approximately 5 seconds.   As previously indicated, the time span between the shot entering the back of the President’s neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds.  If the second shot missed, then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots.  If either the first or third shots missed, then a minimum of 2.3 seconds (necessary to operate the rifle) must be added to the time span of the shots which hit, giving a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots.   If more than 2.3 seconds elapsed between a shot that missed and one that hit, then the time span would be correspondingly increased.


The Warren Commission did not form a conclusion regarding which shot might have missed. Therefore the WC only concluded that the time span of the shots could have been from 4.8 to 7.9-seconds, or even more, depending on which shot actually did miss.

As previously indicated, the time span between the shot entering the back of the President’s neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds.  If the second shot missed, then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots.

Eyewitnesses unanimously state the first shot struck JFK with the exception of Woodward . Altgens stated the one thing he was sure of was that there was not a shot after the head shot.

Altgens....” but as I say, that's an obvious conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head.”

I think he would have been close enough to know. Maybe the only question you should ask yourself is why are so many of the eyewitnesses two shot witnesses. Altgens is included. 

Something else the WC stated is they felt the witnesses were influenced by the media into inflating the number of shots. I don’t see that anywhere in your post about the WC conclusions.