Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Two Wallets? Nope.  (Read 19278 times)

Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7945
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #216 on: May 08, 2025, 03:50:54 PM »
Advertisement
Sure Earlene had a little trouble with her eyesight but she wasn't blind, and that's why there was a slight discrepancy remembering the exact shade of the jacket which by the way she saw in a different environment and therefore used words like "seems" and "I won't be sure". Thanks for pointing out the fact about Earlene's eyesight because ironically it helps the LNer case more than the CT allegation! Thumb1:

Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162---have you ever seen this jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket?


But she sure did remember the specific action of Oswald zipping up the jacket!!

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door.
Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.


And guess what the jacket in evidence is a zipper type, how about that!


Sure Earlene had a little trouble with her eyesight but she wasn't blind

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, you know, I can't see too good how to read. I'm completely blind in my right eye.

Oops!

that's why there was a slight discrepancy remembering the exact shade of the jacket which by the way she saw

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.

Oops!

And guess what the jacket in evidence is a zipper type, how about that!

How about what? Just because the jacket in evidence is a zipper type, it must be the same jacket that Roberts could not identify because the one Oswald was wearing was darker!



Quote



And many other eyewitnesses at the Tippit crime scene remembered Oswald wearing a grey/tan jacket, and at the Texas Theater when Oswald was photographed outside, he had NO jacket. Oops!

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.
Mr. BELIN - Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?
Mr. BENAVIDES - It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BELIN. Was the jacket open or closed up?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was open.

Mrs. MARY BROCK, 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, she was at the Ballew Texaco Service Station located in the 600 block of Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas. She advised that at approximately 1:30 PM a white male described as approximately 30 years of age; 5 feet, 10 inches; light—colored complexion, wearing light clothing, came past her walking at a fast pace, wearing a light—colored jacket and with his hands in his pockets.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a lithe sort of light-gray-looking jacket.
Mr. BALL. A gray jacket.
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a light gray jacket and a white T-shirt.


JohnM

Circular logic.

1. Witnesses saw the killer wearing a jacket, so Oswald must have left the rooming house wearing a jacket
2. Oswald left the rooming house wearing a jacket, so the witnesses must have seen Oswald.

Pathetic!

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #216 on: May 08, 2025, 03:50:54 PM »


Offline John Mytton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4866
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #217 on: May 08, 2025, 03:53:34 PM »
....and on Friday evening Frazier denied it was the same bag.

That's because as Frazier repeatedly says in his testimony that he never payed much attention to the bag! Doh!

JohnM

Offline John Mytton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4866
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #218 on: May 08, 2025, 04:02:42 PM »
Sure Earlene had a little trouble with her eyesight but she wasn't blind

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, you know, I can't see too good how to read. I'm completely blind in my right eye.

Oops!

that's why there was a slight discrepancy remembering the exact shade of the jacket which by the way she saw

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.

Oops!

And guess what the jacket in evidence is a zipper type, how about that!

How about what? Just because the jacket in evidence is a zipper type, it must be the same jacket that Roberts could not identify because the one Oswald was wearing was darker!



Circular logic.

1. Witnesses saw the killer wearing a jacket, so Oswald must have left the rooming house wearing a jacket
2. Oswald left the rooming house wearing a jacket, so the witnesses must have seen Oswald.

Pathetic!

Huh?

Earlene wasn't blind in her left eye. LOL.

1. Multiple eyewitnesses positively identified the killer with the gun at the scene or moving away to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
2. Multiple eyewitnesses positively identified Oswald wearing a jacket.

Do you even know how circular logic works?? LMFAO. Hahaha.

Do some more research then get back to me. Bye bye.

JohnM



JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #218 on: May 08, 2025, 04:02:42 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7945
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #219 on: May 08, 2025, 04:06:27 PM »
Thanks Steve, I totally agree, there has been a heck of a lot of research and investigations in this case, probably more than any other murder in history, and 60+ years later there is still only one narrative that fits from beginning to end, Oswald did it!

JohnM

research and investigations in this case,

Indeed...  the same evidence (as far as it was available at a particular time) was researched and investigated over and over again.

Start with the same evidence, limit the scope of the investigation, politicize the process and then be not surprised that the outcome is the same.

What there has never ever been, and probably never will be, is an independent re-investigation of this case from scratch. It's way too late for that now, so the victor writes the history as if he's right.

When Henry Tudor had beaten Richard III in battle, he backdated his ascend to the throne with two days, so that he could claim in the history books that Richard III was an usurper from whom he had reclaimed the crown.
All BS of course, but it's still in the offical records,.... so it must be true, right?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2025, 08:47:05 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7945
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #220 on: May 08, 2025, 04:15:44 PM »
Huh?

Earlene wasn't blind in her left eye. LOL.

1. Multiple eyewitnesses positively identified the killer with the gun at the scene or moving away to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
2. Multiple eyewitnesses positively identified Oswald wearing a jacket.

Do you even know how circular logic works?? LMFAO. Hahaha.

Do some more research then get back to me. Bye bye.

JohnM

Earlene wasn't blind in her left eye. LOL.

Nobody said she was, but some fool claimed she only had "a little trouble with her eyesight"

Do you even know how circular logic works?? LMFAO. Hahaha.

Actually I do, but you clearly don't.

Do some more research then get back to me. Bye bye.

You can always tell when "Mytton" feels cornered

Now sit back and watch him come back with some sort of crappy condescending rant.

Mytton's double standard;

Frazier who has 20/20 eyesight but wasn't paying much attention was wrong about what he saw and Roberts who was blind in one eye, had poor eyesight and wasn't paying much attention was 100% correct about what she saw!

Hilarious and sad at the same time


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #220 on: May 08, 2025, 04:15:44 PM »


Offline Michael Capasse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 479
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #221 on: May 08, 2025, 04:43:52 PM »
He was sure how it was held.... Doh!

Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD - Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes.

and the bottom:
Mr. FRAZIER - I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had this part down here,
like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that...".
« Last Edit: May 08, 2025, 05:09:17 PM by Michael Capasse »

Offline Lance Payette

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 479
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #222 on: May 08, 2025, 05:41:32 PM »
Once again, we are provided with a textbook lesson in Conspiracy Think.

Frazier and Randle insisted the package they saw was several inches shorter than a disassembled Carcano. It would have been nice for the WC narrative if they could have been convinced, coerced or intimidated into changing their stories, but they were firm. Randle in particular was impressive in regard to the package.

Here in the Real World, we take account of the circumstances under which they saw the package, how much attention they paid and how different their observations were from what they would have seen if Oswald had been carrying the disassembled Carcano (6.3” in the case of Randle, 28.5" vs. 34.8"). If Frazier and Randle had been firm that Oswald was carrying an ordinary little lunch sack, the WC would have had, and the LN narrative would have, a much more significant problem. As it was, they established a longish, stiff package.

We factor what Frazier and Randle observed into the totality of the circumstances, from the purchase of the rifle to its storage in the Paine garage; to Oswald’s curious Thursday trip and curtain rod explanation; to the rifle being found in the TSBD and identified as the assassination weapon. The rational conclusion is that Frazier and Randle were simply mistaken regarding the length, which is entirely understandable given the circumstances under which they saw the package and how much attention they would have paid; at the time, there was absolutely nothing significant about Oswald or the package. (A homely analogy, but I've played golf with my good friend at least 50 times. I couldn't tell you if his putter is 36" or 30".)

This is not how Conspiracy Think works. Frazier’s and Randle’s observations are dispositive. Oswald was carrying a package too short to be the rifle, period. From this, Conspiracy Think spirals off in both directions – i.e., whether Oswald owned a rifle at all, who removed it from the Paine garage and planted it in the TSBD if he did, yada yada.

It’s irrational, but it’s what those prone to the conspiracy mindset do – simple as that. This mindset has been established in a vast body of psychological and sociological research. It’s the elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss. The answer to those who treat Frazier and Randle as dispositive is, “You aren’t thinking clearly” – simple as that. THAT is the elephant in the room: You are thinking the way that those prone to the conspiracy mindset think. It isn't the mere fact that you believe the JFKA was a conspiracy that establishes this. It's the games you play with the evidence and the irrational inferences you draw that establish this.

Poor old Earlene Roberts? Well, at the WC she repeatedly used the phrase “didn’t pay much attention,” specifically in regard to Oswald’s coming and going, because she was understandably preoccupied with the JFKA news on TV and her problem with the TV’s reception. She also stated she was “completely blind in my right eye.” The day of the assassination, she described a “short gray coat,” then later a “dark” zipper jacket or coat. Here in the Real World, these are simply facts to be taken into consideration in assessing her contribution to the identification of the jacket found in connection with the Tippit murder. Nothing more nor less. There is nothing dispositive, or essential to the identification of the jacket, about anything she said.

Online Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7945
Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #223 on: May 08, 2025, 07:06:19 PM »
Once again, we are provided with a textbook lesson in Conspiracy Think.

Frazier and Randle insisted the package they saw was several inches shorter than a disassembled Carcano. It would have been nice for the WC narrative if they could have been convinced, coerced or intimidated into changing their stories, but they were firm. Randle in particular was impressive in regard to the package.

Here in the Real World, we take account of the circumstances under which they saw the package, how much attention they paid and how different their observations were from what they would have seen if Oswald had been carrying the disassembled Carcano (6.3” in the case of Randle, 28.5" vs. 34.8"). If Frazier and Randle had been firm that Oswald was carrying an ordinary little lunch sack, the WC would have had, and the LN narrative would have, a much more significant problem. As it was, they established a longish, stiff package.

We factor what Frazier and Randle observed into the totality of the circumstances, from the purchase of the rifle to its storage in the Paine garage; to Oswald’s curious Thursday trip and curtain rod explanation; to the rifle being found in the TSBD and identified as the assassination weapon. The rational conclusion is that Frazier and Randle were simply mistaken regarding the length, which is entirely understandable given the circumstances under which they saw the package and how much attention they would have paid; at the time, there was absolutely nothing significant about Oswald or the package. (A homely analogy, but I've played golf with my good friend at least 50 times. I couldn't tell you if his putter is 36" or 30".)

This is not how Conspiracy Think works. Frazier’s and Randle’s observations are dispositive. Oswald was carrying a package too short to be the rifle, period. From this, Conspiracy Think spirals off in both directions – i.e., whether Oswald owned a rifle at all, who removed it from the Paine garage and planted it in the TSBD if he did, yada yada.

It’s irrational, but it’s what those prone to the conspiracy mindset do – simple as that. This mindset has been established in a vast body of psychological and sociological research. It’s the elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss. The answer to those who treat Frazier and Randle as dispositive is, “You aren’t thinking clearly” – simple as that. THAT is the elephant in the room: You are thinking the way that those prone to the conspiracy mindset think. It isn't the mere fact that you believe the JFKA was a conspiracy that establishes this. It's the games you play with the evidence and the irrational inferences you draw that establish this.

Poor old Earlene Roberts? Well, at the WC she repeatedly used the phrase “didn’t pay much attention,” specifically in regard to Oswald’s coming and going, because she was understandably preoccupied with the JFKA news on TV and her problem with the TV’s reception. She also stated she was “completely blind in my right eye.” The day of the assassination, she described a “short gray coat,” then later a “dark” zipper jacket or coat. Here in the Real World, these are simply facts to be taken into consideration in assessing her contribution to the identification of the jacket found in connection with the Tippit murder. Nothing more nor less. There is nothing dispositive, or essential to the identification of the jacket, about anything she said.

What he said; yada yada.

Frazier and Randle insisted the package they saw was several inches shorter than a disassembled Carcano. It would have been nice for the WC narrative if they could have been convinced, coerced or intimidated into changing their stories, but they were firm. Randle in particular was impressive in regard to the package.

Here in the Real World, we take account of the circumstances under which they saw the package, how much attention they paid and how different their observations were from what they would have seen if Oswald had been carrying the disassembled Carcano (6.3” in the case of Randle, 28.5" vs. 34.8"). If Frazier and Randle had been firm that Oswald was carrying an ordinary little lunch sack, the WC would have had, and the LN narrative would have, a much more significant problem. As it was, they established a longish, stiff package.

We factor what Frazier and Randle observed into the totality of the circumstances, from the purchase of the rifle to its storage in the Paine garage; to Oswald’s curious Thursday trip and curtain rod explanation; to the rifle being found in the TSBD and identified as the assassination weapon. The rational conclusion is that Frazier and Randle were simply mistaken regarding the length, which is entirely understandable given the circumstances under which they saw the package and how much attention they would have paid; at the time, there was absolutely nothing significant about Oswald or the package.


Look at him, making excuses to avoid having to deal with what the only two witnesses, who saw the bag, actually said and assuming "facts" not in evidence while speculating about the reason for Oswald's trip, which is only curious in a LN mind.
The whole thing is hot air being described as a "rational conclusion". Where a witness can indeed be mistaken about an estimate of length, it's just about impossible to be mistaken about the way Oswald carried the package (in the cup of his hand and under his armpit). That's why the LNs never ever talk about that description.

In the real world you don't dismiss the statements of the only two witnesses when there is not a shred of evidence that even remotely suggests they could be wrong. In the real world you let the available evidence guide you to a conclusion and you don't dismiss evidence because it does not fit a predetermined conclusion!

Poor old Earlene Roberts? Well, at the WC she repeatedly used the phrase “didn’t pay much attention,” specifically in regard to Oswald’s coming and going, because she was understandably preoccupied with the JFKA news on TV and her problem with the TV’s reception. She also stated she was “completely blind in my right eye.” The day of the assassination, she described a “short gray coat,” then later a “dark” zipper jacket or coat. Here in the Real World, these are simply facts to be taken into consideration in assessing her contribution to the identification of the jacket found in connection with the Tippit murder. Nothing more nor less. There is nothing dispositive, or essential to the identification of the jacket, about anything she said.


It seems that the only thing "essential to the identification of the jacket" is that Roberts remembered a zipper.
Never mind that there isn't even evidence that the grey jacket was actually at the rooming house on Friday and there is evidence that it may well not have been!

« Last Edit: May 08, 2025, 08:02:48 PM by Martin Weidmann »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Two Wallets? Nope.
« Reply #223 on: May 08, 2025, 07:06:19 PM »