For Weeks Before Assassination Oswald's Every Move Monitored By FBI/CIA

[John Mytton]

How was the FBI incompetent ?
They knew exactly where Oswald worked everyday :

Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it [where Oswald was working] up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.

They knew he obtained a rifle.
They knew of his post-assassination escape plan thru his visit to the embassy in Mexico city

They knew that the Oswald's was working in a building that was literally a sniper's dream nest in terms plugging the president as his scheduled motorcade was to pass close enough for Oswald to spit on him.

What else did they need to know ?

Add to that they had the Secret Service completely informed and updated on the threat Oswald presented with his rifle purchase, escape plan, and his working in a dream sniper's nest high above the upcoming Presidential motorcade route.
How could they have Monitored all the threats that Oswald presented any better ?

They knew he obtained a rifle.

Ok, so "they" knew Oswald received a rifle some time shortly after the 20th of March and then not much later on the 10th of April, General Walker, who lived about 6.5 miles away, survived an assassination attempt, why do you think the obvious assassin Oswald who you claim the FBI was monitoring extremely closely, wasn't a suspect?
Because a search of Oswald's possessions would have provided a very clear link?

Kleins sent the rifle on the 20th of March.



A photo of Walker's home taken with the same camera that took Oswald's family photos and the Backyard photos.



Another photo of Walker's home, also taken by Oswald's camera, was taken very close to where the attempted assassination took place.
An examination of certain construction work appearing in the background of this photograph revealed that the picture was taken between March 8 and 12, 1963.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#walker



JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

I recall from my reading of Walt Brown's voluminous JFKA works (his Chronology is over a million words) that there was some backstory to the Revill-Hosty or Revill-FBI relationship. Unfortunately, I can't recall what it was. Given the paranoia that permeated the FBI thanks to Hoover, I guess we have to ask how likely it is that an FBI field agent like Hosty would have made a bombshell statement like that to an officer of another agency? We would also have to ask what possible factual basis there would have been for such a statement - i.e., what would have caused Hosty or anyone else to "know" that Oswald "was capable of assassinating the President of the United States"? One guess would be that the statement was an invention by Revill and attributable to some sort of bad blood between him and Hosty or him and the FBI. Or perhaps Revill simply misunderstood what Hosty had said. I find the statement itself, and the notion of Hosty making it to Revill as an offhand revelation, highly unlikely.

 I find the statement itself, and the notion of Hosty making it to Revill as an offhand revelation, highly unlikely.

It is nowhere near as unlikely as Revill making up such a statement and putting it on the record within hours of the assassination.
The gravity of Revill's accusation can hardly be underestimated, he had basically placed the DPD at loggerheads with the FBI. What gave him the authority to do that?
Why would it have occurred to Revill that Hosty had some kind of relationship with a suspect arrested for the murder of J D Tippit? How would Revill know this suspect had Communist links?

[John Mytton]

I find the statement itself, and the notion of Hosty making it to Revill as an offhand revelation, highly unlikely.

It is nowhere near as unlikely as Revill making up such a statement and putting it on the record within hours of the assassination.
The gravity of Revill's accusation can hardly be underestimated, he had basically placed the DPD at loggerheads with the FBI. What gave him the authority to do that?
Why would it have occurred to Revill that Hosty had some kind of relationship with a suspect arrested for the murder of J D Tippit? How would Revill know this suspect had Communist links?

The WC testimony of Hosty and Revill went into some detail about this matter of Hosty apparently telling Revill that Oswald was capable of assassinating Kennedy.

First of all Revill considered Hosty to be his friend.

Mr. RANKIN. And the particular words about Oswald being capable of being an assassin those were told you by Agent Hosty in the elevator?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; either just outside the elevator and as we got on. He never mentioned this again because I guess I lost my temper at him for withholding this type of information.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you do anything about losing your temper, did you say anything?
Mr. REVILL. No; Jim Hosty and I are friends, and this has hurt me that I have involved Hosty into this thing, because he is a good agent, he is one of the agents there that we can work with; that has been most cooperative in the past, and I worked with him just like he is one of us.

Revill recalls being pretty sure but acknowledges that he might have misunderstood Hosty's claim.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in regard to his being capable?
Mr. REVILL. This was it. They had--"We had information that this man was capable"----
Mr. RANKIN. Of what?
Mr. REVILL. Of committing this assassination. This is what I understood him to say.
Mr. RANKIN. Are those his exact words?
Mr. REVILL. As well as I recall. Give him the benefit of the doubt; I might have misunderstood him. But I don't believe I did, because the part about him being in Dallas, and the fact that he was a suspected Communist, I understand by the rules of the Attorney General they cannot tell us this, but the information about him being capable, I felt that we had taken a part in the security measures for Mr. Kennedy, and if such, if such information was available to another law enforcement agency, I felt they should have made it known to all of us, and I asked Hosty where he was going at that time.

Revill doesn't remember Hosty telling him about Oswald being in Russia.

Mr. RANKIN. They thought this man was capable of being an assassin?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And yet you say that Agent Hosty just blurted that out?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you remember about it?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; all that I remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make this----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question that comes right along with that? Did he say anything to you about his having been in Russia and redefected?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. That did not come up in this conversation?
Mr.REVILL. No, sir.

Whereas Hosty specifically recalls telling Revill that Oswald was in Russia.

Mr. HOSTY. Very chaotic. The press was swarming all over the Police station. There were television cameras. being brought into the building. Many people were running, coming and going. The place was a beehive of activity.
I parked the car, got out, and started in the door of the basement, at which time I observed a Dallas police car, an unmarked car, drive in, in which there were four detectives. The man sitting on the right-hand side of the front seat next to the driver was a man I recognized as Lieutenant Revill. He signaled me that he wanted to talk to me, at which time he jumped out of the car at the head of the ramp and came over towards me. The rest of the detectives in the ear continued down the ramp to be parked.
We then proceeded in, Lieutenant Revill and I proceeded into the police department and started up the stairs. Lieutenant Revill advised me that--I might add he was in a very excited state--he advised me that he had a hot lead, that he had just determined that the only employee from the Texas School Book Depository who could not be accounted for was a man named Lee.
Now this conversation took place at approximately 3 p.m., about an hour after Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested by the Dallas Police Department. I told Lieutenant Revill that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested about an hour ago, that he was an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, and that he was the man who had defected to Russia and had returned to the United States in 1962.

And the final word from Hosty seems to make sense in that up until that time, Oswald showed no indication that he was violent and from what was known about Oswald, this is a true statement.

Mr. STERN. What did that story state?
Mr. HOSTY. It stated in substance, alleged that I was aware that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, but did not dream he would do it.
Mr. STERN. Did you say that?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir. I want to state for the record at this time that I unequivocally deny ever having made the statement to Lieutenant Revill or to anyone else that, "We knew Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States, we didn't dream he would do it."
I also want to state at this time that I made no statement to Lieutenant Revill or to any other individual at any time that I or anyone else in the FBI knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was capable of assassinating the President of the United States or possessed any potential for violence.
Prior to the assassination of the President of the United States, I had no information indicating violence on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald. I wish the record to so read.

For reference, Hosty's testimony, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hosty.htm

Revill's testimony, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/revill.htm and https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/revill2.htm

JohnM

[Watson Phillips]

On this thread as well, I must put your "violent criminal" portrayal of Oswald in perspective:

1. An 18-year-old kid manages to shoot himself in the elbow at his locker in the barracks with a .22 Derringer that he possesses in contravention of military regulations. The discharge occurs while he is reaching into his locker for shaving cream. He is charged with "wrongful conduct" but not charged with the more serious "misconduct' because it's a minor incident.

2. The same kid, while drunk, accidentally (that was the court finding) spills a drink on a Technical Sergeant, who then shoves him, and the two end up in a minor altercation outside. He is convicted of only one of the charges against him - "using provocative words."

3. For 3+ years in the USSR and U.S., the individual's only brush with the law is for disturbing the peace in violation of a New Orleans municipal ordinance, for which he is fined $10.

4. He was not "under investigation for being a Russian asset." As a former defector with a Russian wife who openly engaged in pro-Castro activities, he was of routine interest to the FBI with no indication he was dangerous or a Russian asset.

5. At the time of the JFKA, he was working as a temporary order filler in a grungy warehouse with some 95 other people, most of whom were employees of well-known publishing companies. He did not have a "workplace on the 6th floor" - it was simply one of the floors from which he filled book orders. There was no "sniper's test" until the day of the JFKA. Every window in every building along the motorcade route was a potential sniper's nest (not to mention all the other locations from which CTers think shots were fired!).

You are simply engaging in the sort of long-after-the-fact, ad hoc "analysis" that is the lifeblood of conspiracy thinking. The day before the assassination, Oswald was simply a young oddball the SS probably should have been told about. After the JFKA, he was an obvious threat, a ticking time bomb, a violent criminal who should have been in shackles a week before the assassination. The reality is, if the SS had been told about him, they like the FBI might well have concluded he was not a threat.

Anyone who has spent more than one stint  no matter the duration in criminal confinement for firearms violations , & assault as well as spending time in mental treatment hospitals for trying to kill themselves should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats  handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.
The FBI did not believe for a second that Oswald "accidentally" shot himself by the way, given his record of active suicidal tendencies
So you believe that someone who has documented suicidal tendencies as well as current file being kept on them by the FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, is someone that is of no particular concern  in being within spitting distance from the president ?
Really?
You sound like excellent candidate for the FBI or the Keystone cops


TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
 INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
 New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
 Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
 United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
 (service included two courts martial and
 incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
 Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
 (time included three days in Botkinskaya
 Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
 TIME
 13 months at age 3-4
 1 month at age 13
 3-9 months at age 15

[Watson Phillips]

The WC testimony of Hosty and Revill went into some detail about this matter of Hosty apparently telling Revill that Oswald was capable of assassinating Kennedy.

First of all Revill considered Hosty to be his friend.

Mr. RANKIN. And the particular words about Oswald being capable of being an assassin those were told you by Agent Hosty in the elevator?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; either just outside the elevator and as we got on. He never mentioned this again because I guess I lost my temper at him for withholding this type of information.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you do anything about losing your temper, did you say anything?
Mr. REVILL. No; Jim Hosty and I are friends, and this has hurt me that I have involved Hosty into this thing, because he is a good agent, he is one of the agents there that we can work with; that has been most cooperative in the past, and I worked with him just like he is one of us.

Revill recalls being pretty sure but acknowledges that he might have misunderstood Hosty's claim.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in regard to his being capable?
Mr. REVILL. This was it. They had--"We had information that this man was capable"----
Mr. RANKIN. Of what?
Mr. REVILL. Of committing this assassination. This is what I understood him to say.

What law enforcement officer with half a brain would have thought and individual prone to suicide . AS MOST ASSASSINS ARE, and who has active file with FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, among others would ever be a potential problem being within spitting distance of a U.S. President ?

TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
 INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
 New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
 Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
 United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
 (service included two courts martial and
 incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
 Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
 (time included three days in Botkinskaya
 Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
 TIME
 13 months at age 3-4
 1 month at age 13
 3-9 months at age 15

[John Mytton]

Anyone who has spent more than one stint  no matter the duration in criminal confinement for firearms violations , & assault as well as spending time in mental treatment hospitals for trying to kill themselves should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats  handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.
The FBI did not believe for a second that Oswald "accidentally" shot himself by the way, given his record of active suicidal tendencies
So you believe that someone who has documented suicidal tendencies as well as current file being kept on them by the FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, is someone that is of no particular concern  in being within spitting distance from the president ?
Really?
You sound like excellent candidate for the FBI or the Keystone cops


TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
 INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
 New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
 Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
 United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
 (service included two courts martial and
 incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
 Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
 (time included three days in Botkinskaya
 Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
 TIME
 13 months at age 3-4
 1 month at age 13
 3-9 months at age 15

should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats  handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.

Top 5?? I doubt Oswald would make the top 100!

You can't be serious? These "crimes" by Oswald are of the pussy variety, Where is the armed hold-ups? Stabbings? Shooting people(other than himself)? Bashing the snot out of people, even one? Where did Oswald spend time in a real prison for a real crime?
Hosty had from anywhere from 25 to 40 people that he was monitoring at any one time and I bet there was some real proven violent psychopaths on that list!

JohnM

[Lance Payette]

Anyone who has spent more than one stint  no matter the duration in criminal confinement for firearms violations , & assault as well as spending time in mental treatment hospitals for trying to kill themselves should qualify for the top 5 in a list of threats  handed over to the President's Secret Service Advance Team.
The FBI did not believe for a second that Oswald "accidentally" shot himself by the way, given his record of active suicidal tendencies
So you believe that someone who has documented suicidal tendencies as well as current file being kept on them by the FBI, CIA, KGB, NIS, is someone that is of no particular concern  in being within spitting distance from the president ?
Really?
You sound like excellent candidate for the FBI or the Keystone cops


TABLE 1. LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S DISCIPLINARY CAREER
 INSTITUTION
Bethlehem Children's Home
New Orleans (1942-1943)
 New York Youth House for Boys
New York City (1953)
 Civil Air Patrol (light drilling unit)
New Orleans (1955)
 United States Marine Corps
California and Japan (1957-1959)
 (service included two courts martial and
 incarceration in marine brig for 28 days)
 Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)
(1960_1962)31
 (time included three days in Botkinskaya
 Hospital Mental Unit in Moscow)
 TIME
 13 months at age 3-4
 1 month at age 13
 3-9 months at age 15

On neither thread on which I have raised the issue have you addressed what you think the significance of all this is. We can stipulate that, in retrospect, the CIA and FBI were not as diligent and coordinated in monitoring Oswald as they should have been. I am not willing to stipulate that what they knew necessarily should have required notice to the SS, but I'll do so for the sake of argument. I am certainly not willing to stipulate that the SS would have found Oswald to be a threat and would have taken any action at all, but I'll even do that for the sake of argument.

The issue remains: What point are you making? Simply that the CIA and FBI dropped the ball? That this somehow factors into some JFKA conspiracy? That it somehow explains Oswald's patsy statement? Surely you can clearly and succinctly explain what point you're making - can't you?

I find your litany of Oswald's "Disciplinary Career" almost comical. THAT is the background of someone the CIA and FBI should have concluded was an obvious threat to JFK? Yep, those little fiends from the Bethlehem Children's Home should be on the SS's radar the rest of their lives. How many people along that motorcade route do you think had backgrounds that would make Oswald look like a choir boy - "oodles and gobs," as Tom would ask?

Can you REALLY not see what you are doing - i.e., applying after-the-fact, ad hoc reasoning? We KNOW that Oswald shot JFK. Ergo, he was obviously someone capable of shooting JFK. Ergo, whatever his background was, it was the background of someone capable of shooting JFK. Ergo, the CIA and FBI should have known (or did know) about that background and should have alerted the SS about this obvious threat to JFK. Ergo, if they had, the SS would have had Oswald under control and the JFKA never would have happened. Ergo, since the CIA and/or FBI did not do this, there was a conspiracy and Oswald was a mere patsy.

It's almost a perfect example of ad hoc Conspiracy Thinking. Try explaining your point in a way that makes it look like something other than a perfect example of Conspiracy Thinking.

[Richard Smith]

After the fact of any violent act, there are often some red flags.  Almost no one commits such extreme acts without some prior indication of being unbalanced.  Before the fact, however, an individual like Oswald would have fallen into a bucket with tens of thousands of other non-violent political loons that the FBI kept tabs on.  There were likely also thousands more with violent histories.  Nothing particularly distinguished Oswald from any other such other person.  It is only with the benefit of hindsight that an argument can be made that the FBI should have singled out Oswald for greater scrutiny.  It is interesting that in this CTer fantasy it is implicitly conceded that Oswald was a violent person capable of assassinating JFK and that he did order and obtain a rifle.   Very interesting.