The education of Lance Payette re: LHO and probable "mole" Bruce Solie, et al.

[Tom Graves]

Lance asked: "Would what Oswald did have made sense if the CIA were under the control of the KGB?"

My reply (not realizing that Lance meant specifically in Helsinki):

The CIA was under the control of the KGB in the sense that the father-figure-requiring Chief of Counterintelligence, James Angleton, was manipulated by a probable KGB "mole" (Bruce Leonard Solie) who was aided by other probable KGB "moles" (e.g., George Kisevalter).

What did Oswald do?

He starts teaching himself Russian while still in the Marines.

He gets out of active duty several months early.

He goes to Moscow via probably-expecting-him Golub in Helsinki. (At 10:57:21, this sentence was edited to include "via probably-expecting-him Golub in Helsinki")

He walks into the American Embassy and tells the probably-expecting-him Consul (and probable CIA agent) Snyder and the KGB's hidden microphones that he's going to tell the Soviets about Marine Corps radar and what he knows about the U-2.

He works in a radio factory and lives comfortably two blocks from a KGB school in Minsk for two-plus years.

He marries a former KGB "swallow" and probable KGB informant.

He returns to the U.S. with his wife and young daughter.

He starts his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

With or without encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he tries to kill Edwin Walker.

He tries to visit Cuba and ostensibly move back to the USSR.

With or without the encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he kills JFK.

[Tom Graves]

The CIA was under the control of the KGB in the sense that the father-figure-requiring Chief of Counterintelligence, James Angleton, was manipulated by a probable KGB "mole" (Bruce Leonard Solie) who was aided by other probable KGB "moles" (e.g., George Kisevalter).

What did Oswald do?

Lance's rebuttal: Well, OK, but little if any of this is relevant to the specific issues I raised in this thread [about LHO in Helsinki].

He starts teaching himself Russian while still in the Marines.

Lance's rebuttal: I'm not sure that's true in terms of the Marines being where he started. He had a longstanding interest and was receiving Russian newspapers and magazines, so trying to learn Russian isn't too mysterious. In the ASC application, he optimistically described himself as having the proficiency of one year of schooling, and the Marine test he took not long before defecting rated his Russian as poor. Sure, trying to learn some Russian is consistent with a plan to defect, but not inevitably so and I don't see his efforts as particularly mysterious.

He gets out of active duty several months early.

Lance's rebuttal: OK, why? What was the necessity? Why add that complexity instead of just wafting a few months to fulfill his enlistment? Perhaps he was just fed up with the Marines. What I see from many CTers is an ad hoc, after-the-fact overlay of mystery and intrigue on actions that to me look no more mysterious than simply Oswald Being Oswald.

He goes to Moscow.

He walks into the American Embassy and tells the probably-expecting-him Consul (and probable CIA agent) Snyder and the KGB's hidden microphones that he's going to tell the Soviets about Marine Corps radar and what he knows about the U-2.

He lives two blocks from a KGB school in Minsk for two-plus years.

He marries a former KGB "swallow" and probable KGB informant.

He returns to the U.S. with his wife and young daughter.

He starts his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

With or without encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he tries to kill Edwin Walker.

He tries to visit Cuba and ostensibly move back to the USSR.

With or without the encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he kills JFK.

Lance's rebuttal: This is all way beyond the scope of my posts. I do have my own views of all of it, all them consistent with Oswald Being Oswald.

FWIW, I've been to Oswald's apartment (not in it). I've been to the big yellow KGB building (not in it) and photographed it. "Two blocks" is a bit misleading. Oswald's apartment is separated from the big theater in Minsk (I've attended the ballet there twice) by a park, and the theater is separated by a river from the business district where the KGB building is located. To suggest he was popping in and out of some "KGB school" is misleading. My wife lived in Minsk as a municipal administrator for decades, and she says no one had any idea what went on in the KGB building nor did she ever hear it described as a school.

[Tom Graves]

The CIA was under the control of the KGB in the sense that the father-figure-requiring Chief of Counterintelligence, James Angleton, was manipulated by a probable KGB "mole" (Bruce Leonard Solie) who was aided by other probable KGB "moles" (e.g., George Kisevalter).

What did Oswald do?

Lance's rebuttal: Well, OK, but little if any of this is relevant to the specific issues I raised in this thread [about LHO in Helsinki].

He starts teaching himself Russian while still in the Marines.

Lance's rebuttal: I'm not sure that's true in terms of the Marines being where he started. He had a longstanding interest and was receiving Russian newspapers and magazines, so trying to learn Russian isn't too mysterious. In the ASC application, he optimistically described himself as having the proficiency of one year of schooling, and the Marine test he took not long before defecting rated his Russian as poor. Sure, trying to learn some Russian is consistent with a plan to defect, but not inevitably so and I don't see his efforts as particularly mysterious.

He gets out of active duty several months early.

Lance's rebuttal: OK, why? What was the necessity? Why add that complexity instead of just wafting a few months to fulfill his enlistment? Perhaps he was just fed up with the Marines. What I see from many CTers is an ad hoc, after-the-fact overlay of mystery and intrigue on actions that to me look no more mysterious than simply Oswald Being Oswald.

He goes to Moscow [my edit: via probably-expecting-him Golub in Helsinki].

He walks into the American Embassy and tells the probably-expecting-him Consul (and probable CIA agent) Snyder and the KGB's hidden microphones that he's going to tell the Soviets about Marine Corps radar and what he knows about the U-2.

He lives two blocks from a KGB school in Minsk for two-plus years.

He marries a former KGB "swallow" and probable KGB informant.

He returns to the U.S. with his wife and young daughter.

He starts his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

With or without encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he tries to kill Edwin Walker.

He tries to visit Cuba and ostensibly move back to the USSR.

With or without the encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he kills JFK.

Lance's rebuttal: This is all way beyond the scope of my posts. I do have my own views of all of it, all them consistent with Oswald Being Oswald.

FWIW, I've been to Oswald's apartment (not in it). I've been to the big yellow KGB building (not in it) and photographed it. "Two blocks" is a bit misleading. Oswald's apartment is separated from the big theater in Minsk (I've attended the ballet there twice) by a park, and the theater is separated by a river from the business district where the KGB building is located. To suggest he was popping in and out of some "KGB school" is misleading. My wife lived in Minsk as a municipal administrator for decades, and she says no one had any idea what went on in the KGB building nor did she ever hear it described as a school.

Dear Lance,

What do you mean by "Oswald['s] Being Oswald" when you say, "I do have my own views of all of it"?

Regardless, I guess my best answer to your original question, "Would what Oswald did [IN HELSINKI] have made sense if the CIA were under the control of the KGB?," is "It would depend on whether or not LHO realized he was being sent to Helsinki / Moscow by a KGB 'mole' in the CIA, or if he mistakenly believed he was on an exciting 'I Led Three Lives' mission for the 'regular' CIA."

-- Tom

[Lance Payette]

Wow, I've been immortalized with my name in a thread title! My life is now complete. (There were similar threads at the Ed Forum and Greg Parker's forum, so I have now achieved the JFKA Trifecta of Infamy!) Seriously, Tom, I've always enjoyed your posts.

By Oswald Being Oswald, I simply mean (1) this was an intelligent but idealistic, frustrated and alienated young guy who was desperate to be taken seriously; (2) he particularly enjoyed the shock value of being Marxist Me whenever this would have the effect of being shocking, although I do believe he was sincere in his idealistic notions of Marxism; (3) I believe he was sincere in his defection and sincerely hoped to find recognition as a deep thinker in the USSR; (4) I think Snyder was a savvy guy who recognized Oswald was basically a mixed-up kid and dealt with him gently (I love Snyder's ironic warning that if Oswald was a Marxist he was going to be a "very lonely guy" in Moscow); (5) I believe the KGB quickly realized he was a loose cannon and assigned him to a backwater like Minsk where he was unlikely to cause too many problems; (6) I think he married Marina simply because it would be cool and "Russian" to have such a wife (I know the feeling!); (7) I think Marina married him for the same reason and was genuinely enthusiastic about escaping the USSR for her notions of America  - I just don't see her as a KGB operative at all; (EIGHT - it keeps inserting some goofy emoji when I put the number) despite what might look to us like the best life he'd ever have in Minsk, he was thoroughly disillusioned with the Soviet system and realized he was not ever going to receive the recognition he thought he deserved; (9) he now thought he would receive recognition in the U.S. as a returning defector with important insights but found himself still a nobody with nothing but menial jobs; (10) what might appear to be the suspicious circumstances of his return were simply the USSR being delighted to be rid of this potential problem child and the U.S. being gentle with a mixed-up goofball (in LBJ's famous phrase about Hubert Humphrey as V-P, it was better to have Oswald "inside the U.S. pissing out than outside the U.S. pissing in"); (11) upon his return to the U.S., his marriage absolutely went to hell, even Cuba (his last idealistic hope) rejected him, and he found himself living in a boarding house, rebuffed by his wife, and working at the absolutely most menial of temporary minimum-wage jobs; (12) then Fate seemingly handed him an opportunity for recognition on a golden platter in the form of the JFK motorcade; and, lastly (13) he seized the opportunity, which I believe he hoped to maximize with a trial that would be months of Marxist Theater and reveal his political genius.

So that, off the top of my head, is Oswald Being Oswald - an intelligent and idealistic but chronically dissatisfied goofball but not an International Man of Mystery or anyone's idea of a CIA or KGB operative.

Anyway, I'll look more deeply into the Bruce Solie stuff.

[Tom Graves]

I will address the points you enumerated -- the trick in avoiding the emoji is to type it with a space between each parenthesis and the 8, like this: ( 8 ) -- later.
By Oswald Being Oswald, I simply mean

(1) this was an intelligent but idealistic, frustrated and alienated young guy who was desperate to be taken seriously;

(2) he particularly enjoyed the shock value of being Marxist Me whenever this would have the effect of being shocking, although I do believe he was sincere in his idealistic notions of Marxism;

(3) I believe he was sincere in his defection and sincerely hoped to find recognition as a deep thinker in the USSR;

(4) I think Snyder was a savvy guy who recognized Oswald was basically a mixed-up kid and dealt with him gently (I love Snyder's ironic warning that if Oswald was a Marxist he was going to be a "very lonely guy" in Moscow);

(5) I believe the KGB quickly realized he was a loose cannon and assigned him to a backwater like Minsk where he was unlikely to cause too many problems;

(6) I think he married Marina simply because it would be cool and "Russian" to have such a wife (I know the feeling!);

(7) I think Marina married him for the same reason and was genuinely enthusiastic about escaping the USSR for her notions of America  - I just don't see her as a KGB operative at all;

( 8 ) despite what might look to us like the best life he'd ever have in Minsk, he was thoroughly disillusioned with the Soviet system and realized he was not ever going to receive the recognition he thought he deserved;

(9) he now thought he would receive recognition in the U.S. as a returning defector with important insights but found himself still a nobody with nothing but menial jobs;

(10) what might appear to be the suspicious circumstances of his return were simply the USSR being delighted to be rid of this potential problem child and the U.S. being gentle with a mixed-up goofball (in LBJ's famous phrase about Hubert Humphrey as V-P, it was better to have Oswald "inside the U.S. pissing out than outside the U.S. pissing in");

(11) upon his return to the U.S., his marriage absolutely went to hell, even Cuba (his last idealistic hope) rejected him, and he found himself living in a boarding house, rebuffed by his wife, and working at the absolutely most menial of temporary minimum-wage jobs;

(12) then Fate seemingly handed him an opportunity for recognition on a golden platter in the form of the JFK motorcade; and, lastly

(13) he seized the opportunity, which I believe he hoped to maximize with a trial that would be months of Marxist Theater and reveal his political genius.

. . . . . . . .

I just now did a little research and found out that the KGB Higher School in Minsk in 1982 was on Vayskavyy Proezd "near Victory Square."

Scroll down to page 20.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32989481.pdf

[Tom Graves]

I just don't see [Marina] as a KGB operative at all.

Have you heard of KGB Major Pyotr Deriabin?

He defected to the U.S. in 1954 and went to work for the CIA.

Two days after the assassination, he wrote that Marina had to be at least a low-level KGB informant to be permitted to marry Oswald and leave the USSR with him.

Which reminds me -- in the early 1970s, CIA Counterintelligence analyst Clare Edward Petty determined by reading some WW II VENONA decrypts that George DeMohrenschildt was very probably a long-term KGB "illegal" because he matched the following descriptions:

1) He was born in "Poland" (he was born in Mazyr, Belarus, 300 miles from the Polish border).

2) He had emigrated to the U.S. before WW II.

3) He lived in Mexico (with his girlfriend Lilia Pardo Larin) during WW II.

4) He was a real "wheeler-dealer."

[Lance Payette]

I just now did a little research and found out that the KGB Higher School in Minsk in 1982 was on Vayskavyy Proezd "near Victory Square."

Scroll down to page 20.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32989481.pdf

OK, thanks. That is the yellow KGB building I photographed. My wife says she never heard it referred to as a school but likewise never had any idea what it was for other than simply KGB. We had an amusing incident on our first date. She kept pointing out the building and saying "KAY-GUH-BEE" (KGB). Since she spoke no English, I guessed she was trying to say "cafeteria." She finally called her daughter, who speaks English, who explained to me that this definitely wasn't a cafeteria and I shouldn't be too obvious in photographing it.

[Tom Graves]

OK, thanks. That is the yellow KGB building I photographed. My wife says she never heard it referred to as a school but likewise never had any idea what it was for other than simply KGB. We had an amusing incident on our first date. She kept pointing out the building and saying "KAY-GUH-BEE" (KGB). Since she spoke no English, I guessed she was trying to say "cafeteria." She finally called her daughter, who speaks English, who explained to me that this definitely wasn't a cafeteria and I shouldn't be too obvious in photographing it.

The CIA document said it was founded in Gomel in 1945 or 1946.

In all honesty, I don't know if it was already in Minsk by 1959.