Debunking the "Jet Effect"?

[John Mytton]

Yes John, I am having problems comprehending what you're posting but I don't think that's on me.
I still haven't got a clue what the above comment has to do with the Jet Effect.
I'm not going to ask for you to clarify it again as it's getting nowhere.
What happens after the initial impact is worthless in solving the crime??
If any other forum member can help me understand what this comment has to do with the Jet Effect, please help.

 "...the majority of the internal pressure escaped through the front right side of Kennedy's head..."

What evidence do you have for this?
Especially when you are showing an image that clearly demonstrates the pressure escaped through the top of his head.

WTF are you on about?

What evidence do you have for this?
Especially when you are showing an image that clearly demonstrates the pressure escaped through the top of his head.

As I said, at the time of the headshot the front right side opens up, hence the exposed bone flap and huge plume of matter all on the front right side(or do you need a pair of glasses?) and according to Newtons law of physics the equal an opposite direction is back and to the left!





JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

As I said, at the time of the headshot the front right side opens up, hence the exposed bone flap and huge plume of matter all on the front right side(or do you need a pair of glasses?) and according to Newtons law of physics the equal an opposite direction is back and to the left!





JohnM

You posted this in an earlier Reply:

This high contrast image of Zapruder frame 313 shows a clear expulsion of matter out the front.



It 100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
How you see it that way is baffling.
There is a 'halo' of material all around his head, in every direction, and there is an incredibly clear trail of individual pieces of skull/brain matter being blown upwards.
This trail of material is, by far, the most obvious indication of the direction of the "expulsion of matter". This is not up for debate.
Your insistence that this emerges from the front right of the head is clearly incorrect.
In an earlier Reply, where I have completely debunked Alvarez's childish notion of a Jet Effect, I posted this:

In z313 we can see what appears to be two "jets" leaving JFK's head, one is very distinct and the other is harder to see. I would argue that these are NOT continuous columns of material/matter and, as such, cannot provide any kind of recoil effect:



In the image below I have highlighted the two "jets" with red lines.
The yellow line is a line drawn through the top of JFK's head to show it's orientation (I've eyeballed it but it's pretty close):



Even if it were the case that these "jets" were continuous, and thus connected to the head system, the main "jet" would be driving JFK's head down and forward, not back and to the left.

I have no doubt that you will continue to believe there was a continuous flow of material exiting the front right of JFK's head causing a Jet Effect, even when the evidence completely debunks such a silly notion.

However, it is important to understand the mechanics of the head shot.
The first force acting on the head is the bullet striking high up and at the back of JFK's head, pushing it forward.
Unusually, the bullet fragments and these fragments travel forward, through the head. Some cause "cavitation and exit towards the front of the skull where they create the second 'forward' force as they encounter and pass through the inside of the skull.
Cavitation causes a pressure wave in the brain tissue and this pressure blows large pieces of the already shattered skull through the top of the head.
These pieces of skull shred the scalp as they travel upwards.
A massive piece of scalp, torn at the crown of the head, is blasted to the right side of the head by the pressure wave and opens up the right side of the head as if it were on a hinge near the right ear. On the inside of this massive piece of scalp there are a couple of very large pieces of skull. On piece remains attached, as can be seen in the Z-film, the other piece comes loose as is thrown forward as the scalp opens up at tremendous speed.
The opening of this massive hinged piece of scalp/skull causes a halo of blood mist around the head in all directions.

[John Mytton]

It 100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
How you see it that way is baffling.
There is a 'halo' of material all around his head, in every direction, and there is an incredibly clear trail of individual pieces of

I never said 100% but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors. The force of expulsion came out on the front right side, therefore Kennedy's reaction was in the opposite direction, back and to the left. It's simple physics even a child could understand







JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

I never said 100% but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors. The force of expulsion came out on the front right side, therefore Kennedy's reaction was in the opposite direction, back and to the left. It's simple physics even a child could understand







JohnM

I never said 100%

There's a misunderstanding here.
I posted that the high contrasted image of the head shot in z313 that you posted "100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
I am over-emphasising that this image does not show matter being expelled from the front. The "100%" is part of that over-emphasis.
You seem to be thinking that I posted that the image does not show the expulsion of 100% of matter out the front.
It just seems like a straight forward misunderstanding.

"...but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors."

Hmm...maybe you can help me out.
In the image below the red lines are the two trails of matter that have been ejected from JFK's head.
We'll imagine that they are continuous columns of matter that are connected to the head (which they clearly aren't) and that way we can consider them to be "jets"
And we'll imagine that they are of equal force (which they clearly aren't) as this will allow us to more easily figure out the position of the resultant vector.
So these two red lines are "vector a" (on the right) and "vector b" (on the right)
The yellow line passes directly through the top of JFK's head an shows the orientation of his head at z313.
The blue line is the resultant vector.

Even in this diagram, with everything in the favour of your theory, we can see that the resultant vector is still to the left of JFK's centre-line.
This means that any "equal and opposite force" acting down this resultant vector would still be pushing JFK's head downwards and forwards.




On every single level the "Jet Effect" fails.
Even a child can see that.

[John Mytton]

I never said 100%

There's a misunderstanding here.
I posted that the high contrasted image of the head shot in z313 that you posted "100% does NOT show the "expulsion of matter out the front".
I am over-emphasising that this image does not show matter being expelled from the front. The "100%" is part of that over-emphasis.
You seem to be thinking that I posted that the image does not show the expulsion of 100% of matter out the front.
It just seems like a straight forward misunderstanding.

"...but at least you are starting to get a grasp on force vectors."

Hmm...maybe you can help me out.
In the image below the red lines are the two trails of matter that have been ejected from JFK's head.
We'll imagine that they are continuous columns of matter that are connected to the head (which they clearly aren't) and that way we can consider them to be "jets"
And we'll imagine that they are of equal force (which they clearly aren't) as this will allow us to more easily figure out the position of the resultant vector.
So these two red lines are "vector a" (on the right) and "vector b" (on the right)
The yellow line passes directly through the top of JFK's head an shows the orientation of his head at z313.
The blue line is the resultant vector.

Even in this diagram, with everything in the favour of your theory, we can see that the resultant vector is still to the left of JFK's centre-line.
This means that any "equal and opposite force" acting down this resultant vector would still be pushing JFK's head downwards and forwards.




On every single level the "Jet Effect" fails.
Even a child can see that.

I'm not sure you realize this but your limited vector lines are misleading because they are only tracing a small bone fragment or two and the Harper fragment that exploded out due to the intercranial pressure, but the giant sized piece of bone on the side of the head was where the majority of the matter was expelled. Oswald was high and behind and the brunt of the expended energy caused by the fragmented bullet was on the front right side, one of the larger pieces which struck the windshield, another was found under the seat and presumably another struck the curb where Tague was standing.



This rarely seen HD Zapruder image shows the large piece of bone hanging out the frontal right side, the largest force vector that you didn't know existed or at least never traced.



The Zapruder film frame Z314 shows a huge piece of the Presidents brain moving downwards past Jackie and thus another sizable force vector.



The Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who can only describe what the saw, all show a massive explosion of blood, brain and skull which was visible on the right front side, like I am telling you.



And finally you have an absurd belief that seems to think that a jet effect should be like a single stream or a cartoon, that isn't what Nobel prize winner in Physics, Alvarez was saying and these following GIFS show where the internal pressure explodes out in the direction of the bullet yet this violent expulsion causes the objects in all cases to go backwards towards the shooter.





I hope you have learnt that your Diagram only shows a fraction of the expended energy and unless you have a better well thought out refutation, then I'm done! Thanks for your participation.

JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

I'm not sure you realize this but your limited vector lines are misleading because they are only tracing a small bone fragment or two and the Harper fragment that exploded out due to the intercranial pressure, but the giant sized piece of bone on the side of the head was where the majority of the matter was expelled. Oswald was high and behind and the brunt of the expended energy caused by the fragmented bullet was on the front right side, one of the larger pieces which struck the windshield, another was found under the seat and presumably another struck the curb where Tague was standing.



This rarely seen HD Zapruder image shows the large piece of bone hanging out the frontal right side, the largest force vector that you didn't know existed or at least never traced.



The Zapruder film frame Z314 shows a huge piece of the Presidents brain moving downwards past Jackie and thus another sizable force vector.



The Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses who can only describe what the saw, all show a massive explosion of blood, brain and skull which was visible on the right front side, like I am telling you.



And finally you have an absurd belief that seems to think that a jet effect should be like a single stream or a cartoon, that isn't what Nobel prize winner in Physics, Alvarez was saying and these following GIFS show where the internal pressure explodes out in the direction of the bullet yet this violent expulsion causes the objects in all cases to go backwards towards the shooter.





I hope you have learnt that your Diagram only shows a fraction of the expended energy and unless you have a better well thought out refutation, then I'm done! Thanks for your participation.

JohnM

Although I'm just a humble layman I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.
So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful. What is the Jet Effect according to Alvarez? I'm lucky that you're such an expert.
Does it explain why in none of the examples of the Jet Effect in action you show over and over again that there is no initial movement away from the shooter as we see in the Z-film?
Have you even noticed that?


PS: I dealt with the bone that can be seen flying into the limo already

[John Mytton]

Although I'm just a humble layman I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.
So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful. What is the Jet Effect according to Alvarez? I'm lucky that you're such an expert.
Does it explain why in none of the examples of the Jet Effect in action you show over and over again that there is no initial movement away from the shooter as we see in the Z-film?
Have you even noticed that?


PS: I dealt with the bone that can be seen flying into the limo already

So, what exactly is Alvarez saying? Just a few lines would be helpful.

In Z313–Z316 (Figure 5) an expulsion of mass (i.e., the “jet”) is observed resulting from an explosion caused in the wake of a high-speed projectile passage. Although the explosion emanates over a range of angles within a roughly conical cloud, the explosion of mass nevertheless is observed to escape from the single large wound on the right front of the President's head (described in the Autopsy Report [3, p. 540] and in Lattimer et al. [12]). Note that this is not a universal occurrence—depending on the firearm, bullet, target, entry and exit locations, etc., different “explosions” can result.8 But in this case a directional expulsion of mass is observed in the Zapruder Film. It is this escape of the explosion from one end of the cavity, but not the other, that creates a directional component to the mass expulsion, and thus a “jet.” In the author's study of the high resolution digital frames, it was noticed that there were particles that maintained their size and shape over adjacent frames, unlike the rest of the material in the cloud. It was subsequently realized that these were in fact solid skull fragments within a cloud of non-solid tissue, and the author has since learned that previous investigators had already ascertained this [52], [12], [7]. But here it is noted that because these solid particles hold together in flight, they can effectively act as tracers, whereby one may estimate the velocity of the ejected mass within the explosion (assuming they travel at the same velocity as the rest of the bulk material).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844017331882

I'm willing to learn and don't want to pass up this chance to learn from someone who rubs shoulders with Nobel prize winners.

Yeah no worries Dan, Alvarez and I go way back.
Here following is some simple math to wrap your head around, good luck!

I'm lucky that you're such an expert.

Yes, indeed you are!

JohnM