Oswald's Marine Corp Rifle Scorebook

[Dan O'meara]

It would be not so much a question if all 3 shots could definitively be established  to be spread out over at least an 7 second period …

The photographic record appears to indicate an early missed shot around the mid to late Z150s. When Jerry Organ recently posted his clip of the lady’s extremely fast head snap (see the thread “A Closer Look”) combined with the other photographic evidence, it became enough to convince me. Combine that with the apparent shot around Z224 and the last shot hitting at Z313, and there is approximately 8.6 seconds for the three shots to take place.
We can all see the photographic evidence and interpret it for ourselves. We do not have to rely on witness accounts (and all of their inconsistencies) and all the various interpretations of them. The “he said, she said” arguments will continue to take place here with no end in sight. It has been over sixty years and people still choose to argue about what so and so meant when he/she said such and such. There are so many witness accounts that anyone with any kind of nutty idea can find something that they think supports their ideas.
I suggest that you look and think for yourself Zeon.

The photographic record appears to indicate an early missed shot around the mid to late Z150s

The photographic record indicates nothing of the sort. It is the worse case of wishful thinking on your behalf.
The evidence overwhelmingly supports a first shot at z222/223.
You seem to have abandoned your initial belief of an early missed shot in the z130's. What caused you to do this?

[Mitch Todd]

what are you babbling now?  - Like you know better than this LT Colonel that actually used the guideline every day?
It is not my opinion nor the opinion of the WC or HSCA. (like u said it was) It was set by the USMC.  You just make stuff up.
I'll look at something else that documents what exactly the Marines accept - otherwise your opinion just doesn't mean that much.

Who said that Folsom "used the guideline every day?" By his own description, he oversaw the USMC's records division. That's it.

Compare Folsom to Major Anderson, who was "Assistant Head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps." He had done "marksmanship training for approximately 18 years" and was "a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America."

So what does he have to say about Oswald's capability? Here:

Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald's marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman?
Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot.

Now, an appeal to Anderson's testimony is just an appeal to authority. But so is any appeal to anything Folsom said. The difference is that Anderson is demonstrably an expert in how the Marines see rifle marksmanship. The key to understanding Oswald's capabilities with a rifle is to look at his actual scores, with an understanding of what those scores actually mean. And those scores mean that Oswald was capable of hitting the target 80% of the time or better. All you have in response is the opinion of the Chief File Clerk in Washington. Good luck with that.

[Zeon Mason]

Oswald was perhaps Capable of an 80% score while using a semi auto M1 Garand rifle firing at targets at the same approx elevation as the shooter , while using a shooting position that the shooter in the TSBD was not likely using.

The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.

[Richard Smith]

Oswald was perhaps Capable of an 80% score while using a semi auto M1 Garand rifle firing at targets at the same approx elevation as the shooter , while using a shooting position that the shooter in the TSBD was not likely using.

The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.

"Back to back" is a subjective description.  Given that we are dealing with a sudden, unexpected and shocking event, and trying to drill down to what happened in a matter of a few seconds, such descriptions are informative but shouldn't be construed as literal.  It could simply mean that two shots were closer together than the other shot.  Comparative and only lending insight on the timing by implication to the pause between the other shot. The basic question is this.  Is there anything about this scenario that precludes Oswald from having fired three shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD with his MC rifle and hitting JFK twice?  He was trained in the USMC.  His rifle was functional.  The distance was not great.  Nothing about the circumstances suggests that he couldn't have done this or even that it was unlikely.  I certainly would not like my chances driving in slow moving vehicle down Elm St. while a USMC trained shooter firing three shots.  I don't think anyone else here would.

[John Mytton]

The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.

First of all this was Bowers' Hallucination on the day of the assassination. Oops!

Mr. BALL - Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?
Mr. BOWERS - At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bowers.htm

Secondly, these shooters who had Actual Real World experience with Bolt Action Rifles, said that the shot spacing in Dealey Plaza could be accomplished with a bolt action rifle.

Mr. BELIN - Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/brehm.htm



Btw what does "ihowxolaysubke" mean?

JohnM

[Zeon Mason]

@Mr.Spock (JohnM) : I do not know how that unknown gobbledegook word appeared but I did not type it that way.  It must have been changed by some quirk in the programming ( maybe Kirk tampered with it?) when I tapped the post button.

As to Bowers, he’s not the only witness who seems to recall the last 2 shots so close together as to rule out a 4.8 sec spread from Z.224 to Z313.

Even if you could manage to convince skeptics like me ( since I do not believe I am an extreme type CT as you may have encountered over the years) that there’s a shot fired way back at Z150 the problem still remains that the spacing is in conflict with the majority of witness hearing the 1…..2..3 pattern and with the closest witness, Harold Norman who completes his replication of the 3 shots he heard in about 4 secs.

So are you suggesting that I discount  Normans recall of the shot spacing also?

Seems improbable to me that Norman would remember 3 shots spaced over 7-8 seconds ( if proposing Z150-160 1st shot ) being completed in only 4 secs or less)

Most every video recording I’ve seen of Norman doing his boom click click sequence , he completes it in 4 secs ( or even less)

So no disrespect to you JohnM , the senior expert on the WC theory , but I cannot  dismiss just those parts of  Bowers or Norman or Markam statements which conflict with the WC theory while retaining only those parts that support it.

[John Mytton]

@Mr.Spock (JohnM) : I do not know how that unknown gobbledegook word appeared but I did not type it that way.  It must have been changed by some quirk in the programming ( maybe Kirk tampered with it?) when I tapped the post button.

As to Bowers, he’s not the only witness who seems to recall the last 2 shots so close together as to rule out a 4.8 sec spread from Z.224 to Z313.

Even if you could manage to convince skeptics like me ( since I do not believe I am an extreme type CT as you may have encountered over the years) that there’s a shot fired way back at Z150 the problem still remains that the spacing is in conflict with the majority of witness hearing the 1…..2..3 pattern and with the closest witness, Harold Norman who completes his replication of the 3 shots he heard in about 4 secs.

So are you suggesting that I discount  Normans recall of the shot spacing also?

Seems improbable to me that Norman would remember 3 shots spaced over 7-8 seconds ( if proposing Z150-160 1st shot ) being completed in only 4 secs or less)

Most every video recording I’ve seen of Norman doing his boom click click sequence , he completes it in 4 secs ( or even less)

So no disrespect to you JohnM , the senior expert on the WC theory , but I cannot  dismiss just those parts of  Bowers or Norman or Markam statements which conflict with the WC theory while retaining only those parts that support it.

Harold Norman in later recollections was simply describing with brevity what he heard in regards to the Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click.

Norman's early affidavit specifically states that there was a time interval of "several seconds" between the first and second shots.

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor."
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm

Even more importantly Norman tells us the weapon he heard was a bolt action rifle, which by nature has a distinct sound and just happens to match Oswald's rifle which was found on the floor above.

"I also could here the bolt action of the rifle."
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm

Then Norman finally clarifies that he heard shells strike the floor above.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?
Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm

And surprise, surprise, surprise, there was three shells found in the sniper's nest directly above Norman.



So in summation, there were eyewitnesses who were familiar with bolt action rifles who say the shots could have been fired by a bolt action rifle and then as you rightfully acknowledge, the closest eyewitness, Norman, says he heard a bolt action rifle from right above. What's left to argue?

Btw as for Helen Markham, she was only 1 of many who identified Oswald either at or moving away from the Tippit crime scene.

JohnM