How did Oswald get the job at the TSBD

[Joe Elliott]

Real world plots don?t work like this.

Do you have much experience with "real world plots" or are you merely assuming (sorry, you likely call it "common sense") this?

I know of no real-world plots that worked this way.

Question 1:

Name me one real world plot that did work this way.

Question 2:

Name me one major CT book that makes this argument. That Oswald was not part of the plot all along but was chosen no earlier than mid-October 1963?


I expect you will dodge either Question 1 or 2, maybe both.

A conspiracy wanted to commit a crime. There were multiple opportunities to commit it. But they waited until the perfect patsy who just happened to be in the right place at the right time turned up.


Can you imagine a November 1963 CIA meeting with: ?OK. We have another motorcade going through Dallas. Give me a report on all people who work along the route. And have it on my desk by Monday morning.?

[Martin Weidmann]

Instead of being wishy washy, I would like Martin Weidmann to state:

** It is most probably that Oswald was, knowingly or unknowingly, part of the conspiracy before October 1963.

** It is most probably that Oswald was selected by the conspiracy to play his part after mid October 1963, based on where he worked and other factors that make him a plausible assassin.

Likely, Martin will not do so, because neither stand can really hold up. Both have serious problems. So, Oswald must forever remain in some sort of Quantum state. Maybe part of the conspiracy all along. Maybe not. This is how one holds onto bad theories.

neither stand can really hold up. Both have serious problems.

Pray tell, what are those serious problems? I'm interested to see how your mind works.

Maybe part of the conspiracy all along. Maybe not. This is how one holds onto bad theories.

What exactly does "part of the conspiracy" mean to you?

[Martin Weidmann]

I know of no real-world plots that worked this way.

Question 1:

Name me one real world plot that did work this way.

Question 2:

Name me one major CT book that makes this argument. That Oswald was not part of the plot all along but was chosen no earlier than mid-October 1963?

I expect you will dodge either Question 1 or 2, maybe both.

The one dodging the question is you.

I asked you if you had much experience with "real world plots". I did not ask you about "plots that worked this way", whatever that means. 

You stated "Real world plots don?t work like this" and the purpose of my question was to find out on what you based that claim. Telling me that you "don't know of no real-world plots that worked this way" is a meaningless statement which most certainly does not answer my question.

A conspiracy wanted to commit a crime. There were multiple opportunities to commit it. But they waited until the perfect patsy who just happened to be in the right place at the right time turned up.

Can you imagine a November 1963 CIA meeting with: ?OK. We have another motorcade going through Dallas. Give me a report on all people who work along the route. And have it on my desk by Monday morning.?

What is it with LNs and strawman arguments?

Where do you get that a conspiracy would have waited for the pefect patsy to be in the right place at the right time? Why do you assume that a conspiracy at that level (if there was one) would rely on just one scenario and just one possible patsy?

Some food for thought; eloborate magic tricks are impossible to understand and/or explain until they are explained to you and they suddenly become obvious and easy. What smoke and mirrors can't achieve, right?

[Joe Elliott]

The one dodging the question is you.

I asked you if you had much experience with "real world plots". I did not ask you about "plots that worked this way", whatever that means. 

I have not been a part of any real-world plots. I have read about various conspiracies, but I don?t know of any that work the way you postulate, finding the perfect patsy by accident.

There, I have answered your question.


Now, stop dodging my Questions 1 and 2. Or are you going to dodge them by asking another question.



Question 1:

Name me one real world plot that did work this way. Bypassing opportunities time and time again until they somehow found the perfect patsy, within one month.

Question 2:

Name me one major CT book that makes this argument. That Oswald was not part of the plot all along but was chosen no earlier than mid-October 1963?

[Martin Weidmann]

I have not been a part of any real-world plots. I have read about various conspiracies, but I don?t know of any that work the way you postulate, finding the perfect patsy by accident.

When did I ever postulate finding the perfect patsy by accident? If you don't understand what I have said, then please ask me and don't start making up your own versions of what you think it means what I have said.

There, I have answered your question.

Now, stop dodging my Questions 1 and 2. Or are you going to dodge them by asking another question.

Question 1:

Name me one real world plot that did work this way. Bypassing opportunities time and time again until they somehow found the perfect patsy, within one month.

Question 2:

Name me one major CT book that makes this argument. That Oswald was not part of the plot all along but was chosen no earlier than mid-October 1963?

I am not dodging your questions. They are too absurd and vague to be answered.

Name me one real world plot that did work this way. Bypassing opportunities time and time again until they somehow found the perfect patsy, within one month.

Why are you misrepresenting what I said? I have never claimed any plot worked that way, nor have I ever said a word about opportunities being bypassed. It's just another strawman.

Name me one major CT book that makes this argument.

What makes you assume that I read CT books? I don't!

That Oswald was not part of the plot all along but was chosen no earlier than mid-October 1963?

I never made such a claim, nor do I know of any book that makes such a claim. It's actually a claim that is way too vague to be taken seriously. What does "part of the plot" even mean?

[Colin Crow]

A real world conspiracy to assassinate the US President.

John Wilkes Booth was employed at the Ford Theatre and collected his mail there.

Booth learned of Lincoln's attendance at the theatre that morning.....


The logic of the LN argument falls at the first hurdle.

[John Mytton]

On October 4, 1963, Oswald applied for a job as a ?typesetter trainee? at the Padgett Printing Company in Dallas and was turned down because (the bottom of the application reads) ?Bob Stovall [the president of Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall, where Oswald previously worked] does not recommend this man. He was released [there] because of his record as a troublemaker.? Stovall also informed Padgett that Oswald had ?communistic tendencies.?59       


If Oswald was the scheduled hit man in a conspiracy to murder Kennedy, why would those behind him (CIA, mob, FBI, etc.) have him apply for a job just seven weeks before the assassination that wasn?t on the presidential motorcade route and would never be? Padgett Printing is located today where it was back in 1963, at 1313 North Industrial Boulevard in Dallas, a boulevard of light industry and no tall office buildings, where large crowds of people would be nonexistent. After the presidential limousine was scheduled to get off Elm Street onto the Stemmons Freeway en route to the Trade Mart, North Industrial Boulevard, to the west of the freeway, would be running roughly parallel to it, including the location at 1313 North Industrial Boulevard. However, per Dave Torok, president of Padgett Printing, the company?s building has always been only one story, and the Stemmons Freeway, he said, ?is a good half mile away, and you can?t see it from our building, even from the roof.?60       

The point, of course, is that if Padgett Printing Company had hired Oswald on October 4, Kennedy would not have been a target for Oswald to shoot and kill on November 22. And if Oswald were scheduled to be the hit man for the conspiracy to murder Kennedy, why would his employers (CIA, mob, etc.) have him apply for a job that, if he were hired, would eliminate him as their chosen assassin?

But there?s more bad news for the poor, hapless conspiracy theorists, who would gladly settle for anything real, no matter how small, to keep their hopes alive, instead of getting hit with one haymaker after another to their dreams. On October 8, the Texas Employment Commission (TEC) sent Oswald out for a job interview at the Solid State Electronics Company of Texas. He didn?t get the job because the company was looking for a sales clerk, and he had no experience that qualified him for that position. ?I sure would like to have the job,? he told James Hunter of Solid State, who interviewed him. ?Every place I go they want experience.?61 And again, the problem for the theorists is that Solid State was located at 2647 Myrtle Springs in Dallas, out beyond Parkland Hospital and nowhere near the motorcade route.       

The next day, October 9, the TEC sent Oswald to the Burton-Dixie Corporation for a job as a clerk trainee. Emmett Hobson at Burton-Dixie knows that the company didn?t hire Oswald, but told the FBI he didn?t recall why, and could not recall the background information Oswald had given him. Burton-Dixie was located at 817 Corinth in Dallas, an industrial area near Oak Cliff, which again, unfortunately for the buffs, was nowhere near the motorcade route.62        On October 14, Oswald applied for a job at the Wiener Lumber Company in Dallas. The proprietor, Sam Wiener, was impressed with Oswald as a prospective employee until Oswald was asked to show his Honorable Discharge Card, which Oswald, of course, was unable to do. In the ?Remarks? section of Oswald?s application, Wiener typed, ?Although this man makes an excellent appearance and seems quite intelligent he seemed unable to understand when I continually and clearly asked him for his honorable discharge card or papers for the latest (just ended) hitch. I believe he does not have [it] and will not get such a card or paper. Do not consider for this reason only.?       

The lumber company was at the corner of Inwood Road and Maple Avenue, near Love Field, so was close to the motorcade route, but again, not on it. The closest that the president?s motorcade came to this location was at the intersection of Lemmon Avenue and Inwood Road, a little more than three-quarters of a mile from Wiener Lumber.63       

Again, the fact, alone, that Oswald was applying for jobs up through October 14 at locations not on the motorcade route virtually precludes the notion of conspiracy among rational people.
RHVB





JohnM