JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth

[Mitch Todd]

This is just so much bunk. Mitch Todd doesn't know what he's talking about.

You guys don't like that Knott's experts didn't assume the bogus rightward rotation for Connally that your spurious SBT simulations include--the Zapruder film refutes such a rightward rotation. Knott's experts adhered to the photographic evidence, which proves Connally was not markedly rotated to the right. Your bogus animations and diagrams always have Connally rotated markedly to the right when the bullet strikes.

No, the reconstruction animation was not "based on" graphics from a video game. This is an unserious, silly argument.

No, Knott's experts did not put the rifle "in the wrong side" of the window. Nobody knows exactly where the gunman was positioned horizontally in the window.

No, they did not mislocate the back wound. Mitch Todd's claim is based on a sloppy viewing of the Knott animation, or else a deliberate misrepresentation of it. They put the back wound extremely close to the horizontal and vertical positions where the HSCA FPP put it, where the autopsy face sheet put it, and where the Secret Service put it in their Dealey Plaza reenactment on 11/27/63 (look where the Secret Service put the white dot representing the back wound on the stand-in's jacket). Apparently Mitch Todd is relying on the WC's placement of the wound, which was too far to the right and too high.

Are you ever going to deal with the self-evident implications of JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, at least 36 frames after he was first hit and 11 frames before Connally's right shoulder is slammed downward? That is, after all, the subject of this thread.

I have no such need. As I've told you before, I used to believe in the lone-gunman theory. You have made it clear that you have a psychological need to reject the evidence of conspiracy because you've said you believe that such evidence is "nation rending." It seems that in your mind, America is not America if JFK was killed by a conspiracy and if certain high government officials covered up this fact. Your worldview seems to require you to summarily reject the idea of a conspiracy in JFK's death.

MG: This is just so much bunk. Mitch Todd doesn't know what he's talking about. {...} No, they did not mislocate the back wound. Mitch Todd's claim is based on a sloppy viewing of the Knott animation, or else a deliberate misrepresentation of it. They put the back wound extremely close to the horizontal and vertical positions where the HSCA FPP put it, where the autopsy face sheet put it, and where the Secret Service put it in their Dealey Plaza reenactment on 11/27/63 (look where the Secret Service put the white dot representing the back wound on the stand-in's jacket). Apparently Mitch Todd is relying on the WC's placement of the wound, which was too far to the right and too high.

Anyone who looks carefully at the video can see that KL put the bullet's impact right at the coat seam at JFKs centerline. Just stop the video right where they run the bullet path almost all the way to the limousine (they put this at frame 225):



And if you want to quibble about it, they also provide a nice large screengrab jpeg showing exactly where they put the wound at frame 225:



Also notice that they have Connally leaning forwards quite a bit. Even casual inspection of the Zfilm frames reveal Connally is doing anything like that at the time. The forward lean increases the distance between JFK and JBC, and thus the leftward distance the bullet would travel between the two men. There are two other problems that I've previously mentioned. First is, we don't know exactly where the bullet hit. The HSCA (which is what I've been using for a decades now, BTW) puts the entry 5cm/2" to the right of centerline, but uncertainties in how this measurement is derived means the measurement is more like 5 +/- 1 cm. Bullets also don't travel in straight paths, especially after hitting something. This fact adds another layer of uncertainty to the mix. Do it right, like Caning and FaAA, and you wind up with trajectory cones rather than straight lines.

MG: No, Knott's experts did not put the rifle "in the wrong side" of the window. Nobody knows exactly where the gunman was positioned horizontally in the window.

We know he poked the gun out of the east side of the Easternmost window. Amos Euins' testimony is clear about this, plus the other window in that pairing was closed at the time, as the Dillard photo shows.

[Andrew Mason]

I take it you're suggesting the SBT is not essential to Oswald being the lone gunman? I have always had in the back of my mind that the SBT, while possible, is not critical to the LN narrative.

The mistake made by the WC was in assuming that JBC was struck by only one bullet.  The significant speed of the bullet exiting JFK's neck and the absence of any impact damage in the car, meant that it must have struck JBC and caused all his wounds.  Indeed, this is the reason Arlen Specter said he introduced the SBT.

Prior to the SBT, the working hypothesis of the FBI was that JFK was hit in the neck when the car was near the lamppost near the Thornton sign and JBC was hit by the second shot around frame z275 as represented in their models:



The third shot was at z313.  This view was based on the visible movements of JBC beginning around z275, the 1.......2...3 shot pattern and the recollections of Secret Service agents (particularly George Hickey and William Greer).

The FBI appears to have assumed that the bullet through JFK's neck was spent and ended up in JBC's clothes without causing injury.  When the Army ballistics experts said that it would have had plenty of energy after passing through JFK, there was a problem - but only if one assumes that JBC was hit by only one bullet. 

I suggest that such an assumption was a mistake.  The WC did not consider that the left thigh wound could have been caused by the neck bullet (at z190-200 when JFK was near the lamppost/Thornton sign) and then JBC was hit later by the second bullet that passed through his chest and struck the back of his radius. 

At z275 the right forearm was turned so that the back of the right radius was facing the chest exit location.  The evidence of fragmenting of the bullet in the radius is then explained without having to pretend that these two wounds were caused by CE399.  That also fits with Tague's recollection that he was hit by a fragment on the second shot and with Greer's recollection that the second shot sounded like it hit something hard giving a concussion effect.  His right ear was 12 inches from the dent in the windshield frame caused by the impact of a fragment.

[Lance Payette]

The mistake made by the WC was in assuming that JBC was struck by only one bullet.  The significant speed of the bullet exiting JFK's neck and the absence of any impact damage in the car, meant that it must have struck JBC and caused all his wounds.  Indeed, this is the reason Arlen Specter said he introduced the SBT.

Prior to the SBT, the working hypothesis of the FBI was that JFK was hit in the neck when the car was near the lamppost near the Thornton sign and JBC was hit by the second shot around frame z275 as represented in their models:



The third shot was at z313.  This view was based on the visible movements of JBC beginning around z275, the 1.......2...3 shot pattern and the recollections of Secret Service agents (particularly George Hickey and William Greer).

The FBI appears to have assumed that the bullet through JFK's neck was spent and ended up in JBC's clothes without causing injury.  When the Army ballistics experts said that it would have had plenty of energy after passing through JFK, there was a problem - but only if one assumes that JBC was hit by only one bullet. 

I suggest that such an assumption was a mistake.  The WC did not consider that the left thigh wound could have been caused by the neck bullet (at z190-200 when JFK was near the lamppost/Thornton sign) and then JBC was hit later by the second bullet that passed through his chest and struck the back of his radius. 
the radius is then explained without having to pretend that these two wounds were caused by CE399.  That also fits with Tague's recollection that he was
At z275 the right forearm was turned so that the back of the right radius was facing the chest exit location.  The evidence of fragmenting of the bullet in hit by a fragment on the second shot and with Greer's recollection that the second shot sounded like it hit something hard giving a concussion effect.  His right ear was 12 inches from the dent in the windshield frame caused by the impact of a fragment.

FWIW, John Orr has the first shot exiting JFK's throat and denting the windshield trim, with CE 399 (second shot) hitting only Connally and ending up in his thigh but not causing his wrist injuries. His has JBC's wrist injuries being caused by the lead core of from the fatal head shot (third shot) fired by a pro sniper, with Oswald firing a fourth shot that missed. CE 399 would seem more plausible if it weren't responsible for JBC's wrist injuries. On it goes, I guess.

On the timing of the shots, the assumption always seems to be that the "bang-bang" description of the second and third shots means they were right on top of each other. I wonder if what's actually being described is not that they really were so close but that the first shot was definitely earlier, which seems to accord with what you're suggesting. So not 1 .... 2 .. 3 but more like 1 ........ 2 .....3.

[Andrew Mason]

FWIW, John Orr has the first shot exiting JFK's throat and denting the windshield trim, with CE 399 (second shot) hitting only Connally and ending up in his thigh but not causing his wrist injuries. His has JBC's wrist injuries being caused by the lead core of from the fatal head shot (third shot) fired by a pro sniper, with Oswald firing a fourth shot that missed. CE 399 would seem more plausible if it weren't responsible for JBC's wrist injuries. On it goes, I guess.

John Orr did a very good thing in hiring Knott Labs to re-create Dealey Plaza digitally along with the car and occupants.

Based on what John has written, though, he has been persuaded that there were four shots.  I disagree with that although I have to admit that I have not read his book "Analysis of Gunshots in Dealey Plaza".  I do agree, though, that CE399 causing the wrist wound and this:

is not very persuasive.

On the timing of the shots, the assumption always seems to be that the "bang-bang" description of the second and third shots means they were right on top of each other. I wonder if what's actually being described is not that they really were so close but that the first shot was definitely earlier, which seems to accord with what you're suggesting. So not 1 .... 2 .. 3 but more like 1 ........ 2 .....3.

If one follows George Hickey's evidence about what he saw on the second shot, one can pinpoint the time of the second shot at z271-272.  A shot at z271 is 2.3 seconds before the third shot at z313, so enough time for both to have been fired by Oswald.

This is consistent with Oswald trying to get the second and third shots off as quickly as possible without having to re-aim because the car was getting away. The first shot occurred as soon as JFK emerged from under the oak tree. This was just after JFK passed the lamp post before the Thornton sign.  The second shot occurred as JFK was moving slightly left to right, almost directly away from Oswald. It just missed JFK on the right side and struck JBC in the right armpit and wrist.  The third shot fired on the exact same trajectory as the second without having to re-aim, 2.3 seconds later struck him in the head as his head moved to the right.  Believe it or not, there is actually uncontradicted evidence that this is what occurred.

[Michael T. Griffith]

I note that no WC believer is addressing the subject of the thread: JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, the second-most dramatic and visible reaction in the Zapruder film, second only to the head explosion and rearward-leftward head snap starting in Z313.

The bullet that jolted JFK forward and flung his forearms and hands upward in Z226-232 was obviously a different bullet than the one that caused his Z200-225 reaction and that caused Jackie's Z202-225 reaction.

[Tom Graves]

I note that no WC believer is addressing the subject of the thread: JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, the second-most dramatic and visible reaction in the Zapruder film, second only to the head explosion and rearward-leftward head snap starting in Z313.

The bullet that jolted JFK forward and flung his forearms and hands upward in Z226-232 was obviously a different bullet than the one that caused his Z200-225 reaction and that caused Jackie's Z202-225 reaction.

LOL!

Good one, Comrade Griffith!

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif

[Royell Storing]

John Orr did a very good thing in hiring Knott Labs to re-create Dealey Plaza digitally along with the car and occupants.

Based on what John has written, though, he has been persuaded that there were four shots.  I disagree with that although I have to admit that I have not read his book "Analysis of Gunshots in Dealey Plaza".  I do agree, though, that CE399 causing the wrist wound and this:

is not very persuasive. If one follows George Hickey's evidence about what he saw on the second shot, one can pinpoint the time of the second shot at z271-272.  A shot at z271 is 2.3 seconds before the third shot at z313, so enough time for both to have been fired by Oswald.

This is consistent with Oswald trying to get the second and third shots off as quickly as possible without having to re-aim because the car was getting away. The first shot occurred as soon as JFK emerged from under the oak tree. This was just after JFK passed the lamp post before the Thornton sign.  The second shot occurred as JFK was moving slightly left to right, almost directly away from Oswald. It just missed JFK on the right side and struck JBC in the right armpit and wrist.  The third shot fired on the exact same trajectory as the second without having to re-aim, 2.3 seconds later struck him in the head as his head moved to the right.  Believe it or not, there is actually uncontradicted evidence that this is what occurred.

 
   Really? So NOW we will rely on the Eyewitness account of SA Hickey? And who really knows what damage may have been done to the interior of the JFK Limo? They went through that thing with a scrub bucket at Parkland Hospital and then SS Agents were combing through it in the air aboard that transport plane. The JFK Limo has ZERO evidentiary value. It was comprimised and this includes the bullet fragments allegedly retrieved within. The SS Failed to protect the POTUS, The SS stole the body of JFK, the SS then sanitized the JFK Limo. Do you see a common theme here?