JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
Lance Payette:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on August 14, 2025, 05:29:41 PM ---I agree with you that the SBT is inconsistent with the evidence. I agree that the evidence indicates that JFK was hit by the first shot. I also agree that the first shot was well before z226 - between z190 and z200, which is 26-36 frames before z226.
But if you also apply all the evidence, (particularly the 1........2....3 shot pattern evidence but also Hickey, Greer, Powers, Altgens, Gayle Newman), there was only one shot prior to z255. So we are not looking at JBC being hit by a second shot at z226-232, according to the evidence. If JBC was hit just before he starts falling back onto his wife at z275, there is no reason to think that Oswald could not have fired all three shots.
--- End quote ---
I take it you're suggesting the SBT is not essential to Oswald being the lone gunman? I have always had in the back of my mind that the SBT, while possible, is not critical to the LN narrative.
FWIW to anyone, this table is a very convenient way to view every frame of the Z film in isolation: https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/.
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Lance Payette on August 14, 2025, 07:16:11 PM ---I have always had in the back of my mind that the SBT, while possible, is not critical to the LN narrative.
--- End quote ---
I'm surprised you that think the Single Bullet Theory is . . . gasp . . . possible.
Don't you think it's much more likely that two shots were fired simultaneously, one by Oswald's short-rifle from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest which wounded either JFK or JBC (but not both!) and was later found in Parkland Hospital; the other one an ice bullet that was fired from the County Records Building or some-such place and wounded either JFK or JBC (but not both) and melted somewhere inside the limo?
One thing we know for sure is that it's highly unlikely that they were both wounded by CE-399, for the simple reason that it was far too pristine to have caused all seven wounds, plus the holes in JFK's clothes are off by a couple of inches from the entry wound in his upper back / lower neck, and the angles, as determined by Knott's Lab!!!, were such that it was impossible for the bullet to have struck JBC where it did after transiting JFK's body because JFK wasn't leaning forward far enough for that to happen (when he was hidden from Zapruder's view behind the Stemmons Freeway sign)!
-- Tom
Mitch Todd:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 12, 2025, 08:02:06 PM ---This is just so much bunk. Mitch Todd doesn't know what he's talking about.
You guys don't like that Knott's experts didn't assume the bogus rightward rotation for Connally that your spurious SBT simulations include--the Zapruder film refutes such a rightward rotation. Knott's experts adhered to the photographic evidence, which proves Connally was not markedly rotated to the right. Your bogus animations and diagrams always have Connally rotated markedly to the right when the bullet strikes.
No, the reconstruction animation was not "based on" graphics from a video game. This is an unserious, silly argument.
No, Knott's experts did not put the rifle "in the wrong side" of the window. Nobody knows exactly where the gunman was positioned horizontally in the window.
No, they did not mislocate the back wound. Mitch Todd's claim is based on a sloppy viewing of the Knott animation, or else a deliberate misrepresentation of it. They put the back wound extremely close to the horizontal and vertical positions where the HSCA FPP put it, where the autopsy face sheet put it, and where the Secret Service put it in their Dealey Plaza reenactment on 11/27/63 (look where the Secret Service put the white dot representing the back wound on the stand-in's jacket). Apparently Mitch Todd is relying on the WC's placement of the wound, which was too far to the right and too high.
Are you ever going to deal with the self-evident implications of JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, at least 36 frames after he was first hit and 11 frames before Connally's right shoulder is slammed downward? That is, after all, the subject of this thread.
I have no such need. As I've told you before, I used to believe in the lone-gunman theory. You have made it clear that you have a psychological need to reject the evidence of conspiracy because you've said you believe that such evidence is "nation rending." It seems that in your mind, America is not America if JFK was killed by a conspiracy and if certain high government officials covered up this fact. Your worldview seems to require you to summarily reject the idea of a conspiracy in JFK's death.
--- End quote ---
MG: This is just so much bunk. Mitch Todd doesn't know what he's talking about. {...} No, they did not mislocate the back wound. Mitch Todd's claim is based on a sloppy viewing of the Knott animation, or else a deliberate misrepresentation of it. They put the back wound extremely close to the horizontal and vertical positions where the HSCA FPP put it, where the autopsy face sheet put it, and where the Secret Service put it in their Dealey Plaza reenactment on 11/27/63 (look where the Secret Service put the white dot representing the back wound on the stand-in's jacket). Apparently Mitch Todd is relying on the WC's placement of the wound, which was too far to the right and too high.
Anyone who looks carefully at the video can see that KL put the bullet's impact right at the coat seam at JFKs centerline. Just stop the video right where they run the bullet path almost all the way to the limousine (they put this at frame 225):
And if you want to quibble about it, they also provide a nice large screengrab jpeg showing exactly where they put the wound at frame 225:
Also notice that they have Connally leaning forwards quite a bit. Even casual inspection of the Zfilm frames reveal Connally is doing anything like that at the time. The forward lean increases the distance between JFK and JBC, and thus the leftward distance the bullet would travel between the two men. There are two other problems that I've previously mentioned. First is, we don't know exactly where the bullet hit. The HSCA (which is what I've been using for a decades now, BTW) puts the entry 5cm/2" to the right of centerline, but uncertainties in how this measurement is derived means the measurement is more like 5 +/- 1 cm. Bullets also don't travel in straight paths, especially after hitting something. This fact adds another layer of uncertainty to the mix. Do it right, like Caning and FaAA, and you wind up with trajectory cones rather than straight lines.
MG: No, Knott's experts did not put the rifle "in the wrong side" of the window. Nobody knows exactly where the gunman was positioned horizontally in the window.
We know he poked the gun out of the east side of the Easternmost window. Amos Euins' testimony is clear about this, plus the other window in that pairing was closed at the time, as the Dillard photo shows.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Lance Payette on August 14, 2025, 07:16:11 PM ---I take it you're suggesting the SBT is not essential to Oswald being the lone gunman? I have always had in the back of my mind that the SBT, while possible, is not critical to the LN narrative.
--- End quote ---
The mistake made by the WC was in assuming that JBC was struck by only one bullet. The significant speed of the bullet exiting JFK's neck and the absence of any impact damage in the car, meant that it must have struck JBC and caused all his wounds. Indeed, this is the reason Arlen Specter said he introduced the SBT.
Prior to the SBT, the working hypothesis of the FBI was that JFK was hit in the neck when the car was near the lamppost near the Thornton sign and JBC was hit by the second shot around frame z275 as represented in their models:
The third shot was at z313. This view was based on the visible movements of JBC beginning around z275, the 1.......2...3 shot pattern and the recollections of Secret Service agents (particularly George Hickey and William Greer).
The FBI appears to have assumed that the bullet through JFK's neck was spent and ended up in JBC's clothes without causing injury. When the Army ballistics experts said that it would have had plenty of energy after passing through JFK, there was a problem - but only if one assumes that JBC was hit by only one bullet.
I suggest that such an assumption was a mistake. The WC did not consider that the left thigh wound could have been caused by the neck bullet (at z190-200 when JFK was near the lamppost/Thornton sign) and then JBC was hit later by the second bullet that passed through his chest and struck the back of his radius.
At z275 the right forearm was turned so that the back of the right radius was facing the chest exit location. The evidence of fragmenting of the bullet in the radius is then explained without having to pretend that these two wounds were caused by CE399. That also fits with Tague's recollection that he was hit by a fragment on the second shot and with Greer's recollection that the second shot sounded like it hit something hard giving a concussion effect. His right ear was 12 inches from the dent in the windshield frame caused by the impact of a fragment.
Lance Payette:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on August 18, 2025, 10:04:57 PM ---The mistake made by the WC was in assuming that JBC was struck by only one bullet. The significant speed of the bullet exiting JFK's neck and the absence of any impact damage in the car, meant that it must have struck JBC and caused all his wounds. Indeed, this is the reason Arlen Specter said he introduced the SBT.
Prior to the SBT, the working hypothesis of the FBI was that JFK was hit in the neck when the car was near the lamppost near the Thornton sign and JBC was hit by the second shot around frame z275 as represented in their models:
The third shot was at z313. This view was based on the visible movements of JBC beginning around z275, the 1.......2...3 shot pattern and the recollections of Secret Service agents (particularly George Hickey and William Greer).
The FBI appears to have assumed that the bullet through JFK's neck was spent and ended up in JBC's clothes without causing injury. When the Army ballistics experts said that it would have had plenty of energy after passing through JFK, there was a problem - but only if one assumes that JBC was hit by only one bullet.
I suggest that such an assumption was a mistake. The WC did not consider that the left thigh wound could have been caused by the neck bullet (at z190-200 when JFK was near the lamppost/Thornton sign) and then JBC was hit later by the second bullet that passed through his chest and struck the back of his radius.
the radius is then explained without having to pretend that these two wounds were caused by CE399. That also fits with Tague's recollection that he was
At z275 the right forearm was turned so that the back of the right radius was facing the chest exit location. The evidence of fragmenting of the bullet in hit by a fragment on the second shot and with Greer's recollection that the second shot sounded like it hit something hard giving a concussion effect. His right ear was 12 inches from the dent in the windshield frame caused by the impact of a fragment.
--- End quote ---
FWIW, John Orr has the first shot exiting JFK's throat and denting the windshield trim, with CE 399 (second shot) hitting only Connally and ending up in his thigh but not causing his wrist injuries. His has JBC's wrist injuries being caused by the lead core of from the fatal head shot (third shot) fired by a pro sniper, with Oswald firing a fourth shot that missed. CE 399 would seem more plausible if it weren't responsible for JBC's wrist injuries. On it goes, I guess.
On the timing of the shots, the assumption always seems to be that the "bang-bang" description of the second and third shots means they were right on top of each other. I wonder if what's actually being described is not that they really were so close but that the first shot was definitely earlier, which seems to accord with what you're suggesting. So not 1 .... 2 .. 3 but more like 1 ........ 2 .....3.
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