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Author Topic: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What  (Read 19880 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #184 on: March 04, 2024, 05:05:03 PM »
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You were quoting Woodward and now you are not. She was specific as to when.
She said that as he passed by he turned forward and there was a "horrible ear-shattering noise":

"But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed....  As it turned out, we were almost certainly the last faces he noticed in the crowd.  After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible ear-shattering noise...."

Where do you see JFK turn forward?  Here are the frames where JFK turns from looking right to forward.  The turn occurs between z193 and 198:



Quote
Bob Clark was in the car with Bell and Smith
That may be.  But Sloyan was not quoting Clark saying Bell said it.  Sloyan was quoting Smith saying it.  But Sloyan didn’t interview Smith (who died in 1970) so he was quoting someone, possibly Clark, saying Smith said that Bell said it. So it is: Sloyan<someone (Clark)<Smith<Bell.
Here is the source quote (“Total Domination”, Patrick Sloyan, American Journalism Review, May 1998):

“ Smith recounted how Bell began pounding his head and back. Smith, doubling his body over the handset, kept the phone from Bell until the car pulled up at the hospital emergency entrance. When the sedan stopped, Smith said he flung the phone at Bell and jumped out. As Smith headed for the emergency entrance, he said he heard Bell on the radio-telephone, saying, "No one knows if there was any gunfire." In the AP Dallas bureau, staffers remember only a cryptic call – "This is Jack Bell.." – before the line went dead.”

Quote
Post the Connally’s testimony or is that the point of this evasion?
I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136). Again, which part of the following statement is difficult to understand?:

Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest,
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn’t conceivably have
been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I
don’t know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle
has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound
of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached
that far, and after I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and
start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 08:47:25 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #184 on: March 04, 2024, 05:05:03 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #185 on: March 05, 2024, 02:27:55 AM »
She said that as he passed by he turned forward and there was a "horrible ear-shattering noise":

"But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed....  As it turned out, we were almost certainly the last faces he noticed in the crowd.  After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible ear-shattering noise...."

Where do you see JFK turn forward?  Here are the frames where JFK turns from looking right to forward.  The turn occurs between z193 and 198:


That may be.  But Sloyan was not quoting Clark saying Bell said it.  Sloyan was quoting Smith saying it.  But Sloyan didn’t interview Smith (who died in 1970) so he was quoting someone, possibly Clark, saying Smith said that Bell said it. So it is: Sloyan<someone (Clark)<Smith<Bell.
Here is the source quote (“Total Domination”, Patrick Sloyan, American Journalism Review, May 1998):

“ Smith recounted how Bell began pounding his head and back. Smith, doubling his body over the handset, kept the phone from Bell until the car pulled up at the hospital emergency entrance. When the sedan stopped, Smith said he flung the phone at Bell and jumped out. As Smith headed for the emergency entrance, he said he heard Bell on the radio-telephone, saying, "No one knows if there was any gunfire." In the AP Dallas bureau, staffers remember only a cryptic call – "This is Jack Bell.." – before the line went dead.”
I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136). Again, which part of the following statement is difficult to understand?:

Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest,
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn’t conceivably have
been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I
don’t know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle
has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound
of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached
that far, and after I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and
start to turn to my left before I felt anything.

Where do you see JFK turn forward? 

He turns after Z207 Which is confirmed by Jean Newman “just after her” and then “just before” the Chisms. It was not Z193, more like Z214 to Z218.

That may be.  But Sloyan was not quoting Clark saying Bell said it.   

I will try it a different way. Bob Clark was in the car also. Bell is just one more person who says he heard three shots. The point is Bell did not originally know what the sound was.

I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136).

No, it is what did he say not think, you know what both JBC and Nellie said because of all the times it was posted. Are you afraid of it?
Additionally, there seems to be very little time difference between the first shot and his feeling it.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #186 on: March 05, 2024, 04:09:32 AM »
Where do you see JFK turn forward? 

He turns after Z207 Which is confirmed by Jean Newman “just after her” and then “just before” the Chisms. It was not Z193, more like Z214 to Z218.
Buf he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:



Quote
I will try it a different way. Bob Clark was in the car also. Bell is just one more person who says he heard three shots. The point is Bell did not originally know what the sound was.
Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence.  It is interesting that Clark did not say that he heard Bell say it.  Given the extreme competitiveness of Smith who would seize every opportunity to put down his competition ie. Bell, I don’t find it very reliable evidence. Clark never said he disputed the three shots.
Quote
I did.  He said it was inconceivable that the shot he felt was the first shot (4 H 135-136).

No, it is what did he say not think, you know what both JBC and Nellie said because of all the times it was posted. Are you afraid of it?
Additionally, there seems to be very little time difference between the first shot and his feeling it.
Not according to Connolly. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)…

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #186 on: March 05, 2024, 04:09:32 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #187 on: March 05, 2024, 05:50:53 AM »
Buf he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:


Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence.  It is interesting that Clark did not say that he heard Bell say it.  Given the extreme competitiveness of Smith who would seize every opportunity to put down his competition ie. Bell, I don’t find it very reliable evidence. Clark never said he disputed the three shots.Not according to Connolly. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)…

Buf he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:

No, you see him waving and looking at the last group of people on that side of the street and then after he looks forward. You think he is continuing to wave through the shock of being shot?

Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence

What triple hearsay. They obviously weren’t sure at the time. Merriman Smith told them all. Clark refers to the confusion and then Smith reacts. They obviously were not sure.

Smith was the first to recognize the sounds".... "We heard the first shot and somebody said, 'My god, that must be a police backfire,' " Clark recalls. Then two more bangs came. It was Smith who concluded they were gunshots. "I was certain it was gunfire," Smith said that night.”

Smith concluded they were shots not Bell. 

  Not according to Connolly. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)

It is yes according to Connally, actually. The hospital bed interview is entirely different. Neither of the statements do not seem to have much time between sound of the first shot and him feeling it. He was also talking about an automatic gun to help explain how close they were.

Post what JBC and Nelly stated along with Jackies and then you won’t have to interpret anything.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #188 on: March 05, 2024, 07:31:13 PM »
But he does turn forward between z193 and z198. We can see it:

No, you see him waving and looking at the last group of people on that side of the street and then after he looks forward. You think he is continuing to wave through the shock of being shot?

Only if you accept this triple hearsay as reliable evidence

What triple hearsay. They obviously weren’t sure at the time. Merriman Smith told them all. Clark refers to the confusion and then Smith reacts. They obviously were not sure.
Smith was not confused. He was sure they were shots and he was sure there were three.  He was too competitive to not get the facts right.  So if he was unsure he would not have said three shots in his first dispatch:

"DALLAS NOV. 22 (UPI)  -- THREE SHOTS WERE FIRED AT PRESIDENT KENNEDY’S MOTORCADE TODAY IN DOWNTOWN DALLAS.  JT1234PCS”

Quote
Not according to Connally. (But why should we believe him over your superior interpretive skill?)

It is yes according to Connally, actually. The hospital bed interview is entirely different. Neither of the statements do not seem to have much time between sound of the first shot and him feeling it. He was also talking about an automatic gun to help explain how close they were.
Seems?  Nay it is, I know not "seems".

There was enough time, as JBC explained, to realize he had heard a rifle shot and realize that an assassination was unfolding, and to look around to try to see JFK and then decide to turn to his left. Nellie said that he also uttered "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before the second shot.  She also said that she looked at JFK after the first shot but not after the second. She is looking back at JFK past z260.

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #188 on: March 05, 2024, 07:31:13 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2024, 03:07:54 AM »
Smith was not confused. He was sure they were shots and he was sure there were three.  He was too competitive to not get the facts right.  So if he was unsure he would not have said three shots in his first dispatch:

"DALLAS NOV. 22 (UPI)  -- THREE SHOTS WERE FIRED AT PRESIDENT KENNEDY’S MOTORCADE TODAY IN DOWNTOWN DALLAS.  JT1234PCS”
Seems?  Nay it is, I know not "seems".

There was enough time, as JBC explained, to realize he had heard a rifle shot and realize that an assassination was unfolding, and to look around to try to see JFK and then decide to turn to his left. Nellie said that he also uttered "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before the second shot.  She also said that she looked at JFK after the first shot but not after the second. She is looking back at JFK past z260.

Nellie said that he also uttered "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before the second shot.  She also said that she looked at JFK after the first shot but not after the second. She is looking back at JFK past z260

You know what Jackie stated now what did JBC state?

Smith was not confused. He was sure they were shots and he was sure there were three.  He was too competitive to not get the facts right.  So if he was unsure he would not have said three shots in his first dispatch:

He was not confused as much as he did not know for sure if all three were shots. Smith is what the WC and the HSCA committees were referring to when they mentioned the media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2024, 04:20:42 AM »
Nellie said that he also uttered "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before the second shot.  She also said that she looked at JFK after the first shot but not after the second. She is looking back at JFK past z260

You know what Jackie stated now what did JBC state?
It depends on when he was asked. In 1964 he said he said “oh,no,no” as he was hit.  In 1966 he is quoted in Life Magazine (Nov.25,1966, p.48) saying that he said “oh, no, no” between the time he heard the first shot and when he felt the impact of the bullet that hit him in the right armpit. In 1978 he said he uttered “oh,no,no” before he was hit and then changed his mind saying it must have been after he was hit.
Quote
Smith was not confused. He was sure they were shots and he was sure there were three.  He was too competitive to not get the facts right.  So if he was unsure he would not have said three shots in his first dispatch:

He was not confused as much as he did not know for sure if all three were shots. Smith is what the WC and the HSCA committees were referring to when they mentioned the media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots.
Over 40 witnesses recalled not only the number but the 1……..2….3 pattern of the shots. The media did not report on the shot pattern. How did that happen if there were only two shots?

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2024, 04:20:42 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shifting Single-Bullet Theory--It Always "Works" No Matter What
« Reply #191 on: March 07, 2024, 03:30:54 AM »
It depends on when he was asked. In 1964 he said he said “oh,no,no” as he was hit.  In 1966 he is quoted in Life Magazine (Nov.25,1966, p.48) saying that he said “oh, no, no” between the time he heard the first shot and when he felt the impact of the bullet that hit him in the right armpit. In 1978 he said he uttered “oh,no,no” before he was hit and then changed his mind saying it must have been after he was hit.Over 40 witnesses recalled not only the number but the 1……..2….3 pattern of the shots. The media did not report on the shot pattern. How did that happen if there were only two shots?
There is more information than just the collective statements of Nelli, Jackie, and JBC. Also in the car were Greer and Kellerman, Greer is a two shot witness, Kellerman relates the second shot was the head shot based on the car accelerating before a third shot.

It depends on when he was asked. In 1964 he said he said “oh,no,no” as he was hit.  In 1966 he is quoted in Life Magazine (Nov.25,1966, p.48) saying that he said “oh, no, no” between the time he heard the first shot and when he felt the impact of the bullet that hit him in the right armpit. In 1978 he said he uttered “oh,no,no” before he was hit and then changed his mind saying it must have been after he was hit.

You forgot the hospital interview: “Almost simultaneously as I turned I was hit.”

Jackie, Nellie, and JBC himself all state after the first shot and after he is wounded he cries out Oh No,No, No.   

JBC; I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap----

Nellie: Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."
 

Jackie: Describing Gov.Connally cries out Oh No No No after he was wounded by the first shot.

I guess there was a noise, but it didn’t seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, “Oh, no, no, no.””

“I used to think my husband didn’t make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed.”

There is no doubt he was hit by the first shot. Based solely on the statements of the people around him. Patrolman Hargis descibes him reacting to the first shot as does Bill Newman stating after the first shot he could not tell which man had been hit first during Jay Watson TV interview.

 

Governor Connally describing his wounding “after” the first shot.

“Almost simultaneously as I turned I was hit.”

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit.

Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time.

 
Over 40 witnesses recalled not only the number but the 1……..2….3 pattern of the shots. The media did not report on the shot pattern. How did that happen if there were only two shots?

Nellie does not support your claim of the shot pattern.

 Mr. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was less than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted to get whether I had heard you correctly on that.
Mrs. CONNALLY. You did.

In fact there are 40 + two shot witnesses that are eyewitnesses, including Greer, and about an equal number who describe the second shot as the headshot, including Kellerman. All five people in the car stated or described there were only two shots either in affidavits or press interviews.

Jackie stated three different times she felt there were only two shots. Including mentioning the media and then dismissing the media reporting.

Jackie: So I was looking to the left.I guess there was a noise, but it didn’t seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, “Oh, no, no, no.”

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?

Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling...... I used to think my husband didn’t make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the flrst shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.
And I read there was a third shot. But I don’t know. Just those two.

The media is stating there were three shots, but Jackie dismisses that and clearly states two shots. Not once but three different times. How could it be any clearer?

Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two

But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the flrst shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him

And those are the only two I remember....
....And I read there was a third shot. But I don’t know. Just those two


Connally cries out Oh No No No after he was wounded by the first shot.

“I guess there was a noise, but it didn’t seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, “Oh, no, no, no.””

“I used to think my husband didn’t make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed.”

Jackie was bitter towards Connally to the end because she felt him screaming diverterted her attention away from JFK and she could have pulled JFK to safety like Nellie did for JBC.