The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock

[John Mytton]

Interesting,

So when Mytton says;

he is in fact (and what else is new?) misrepresenting the facts, as the catalog number for the 40" rifle was C20-750.

Just like your silly F1 car analogy which I ripped apart, here again you are very, very wrong!

Here's the only relevant Kleins ad which applies to the precise timeframe of when Oswald purchased the rifle



And here's the April American Rifleman Kleins ad.



You boys should have consulted me first before accepting Gil Jesus's typical misrepresentation of the evidence.

Bye.

JohnM

[John Mytton]

well Mr mytton i think gil jesus has done some very good work in regards the rifle . i dont know if he is still a member here . but its worth repeating what he has previously pointed out .

"A second issue I have with the order form and the order blank has to do with the catalog number. The catalog number for the rifle in the Klein's ad was C20-T750. It described a 36" rifle ( B, below ), while the catalog number for the 40" rifle, like the one found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, was slightly different, C20-750 ( C, below ). The catalog number for the 36" rifle was on the order blank ( above, Cadigan 3-A ) and the order form ( A, below ). The order form appears to be a document that was generated by the office of Klein's which typed in certain information and then passed it on to the warehouse to fill the order. Klein's control number and the rifle's serial number were then apparently handwritten by warehouse employees whose job it was to fill the orders." gil jesus

regardless of who one may say ordered a rifle the order form and kliens own documentation tell us that on the order was an order for a 36 inch carcano , along with the kliens catalogue number for a 36 inch carcano . then kliens documentation tells us that THEY SAID they sent the same 36 inch rifle , with same catalogue number that was on the order . so if LN accept that both the order and the kliens documentation is genuine well then equally should it then not also be accepted that a 36 inch rifle was ordered and a 36 inch rifle was dispatched ? .





if we accept that kliens did indeed send a 36 inch rifle ? well then LN have a serious problem , because the rifle in evidence is a 40 inch model . LN will of course argue and say well maybe kliens did not have the 36 inch model so they sent the 40 inch model , but that is just assumption not proof .

there are other issues of course . such as oswalds jaggers chiles stoval work records placing him very much in work on the morning and at the very time the money order was bought and posted . LN will of course say OH HE MUST HAVE SLIPPED OUT OF WORK even tho they have not one shred of proof that he did so .

Fergus, in case you missed my reply to Martin. And by the way, my name is Mytton with a capital "M", not mytton, please be more vigilant in the future!

Here's the only relevant Kleins ad which applies to the precise timeframe of when Oswald purchased the rifle.



And here's the April American Rifleman Kleins ad.



You boys should have consulted me first before accepting Gil Jesus's typical misrepresentation of the evidence.

Bye.

JohnM

[John Mytton]

So, we can't rely on anything that Klein's told us? Is that what you are trying to say?

What a stupid leap of self serving convenience, Jerry didn't say that at all.

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Just like your silly F1 car analogy which I ripped apart, here again you are very, very wrong!

Here's the only relevant Kleins ad which applies to the precise timeframe of when Oswald purchased the rifle



And here's the April American Rifleman Kleins ad.



You boys should have consulted me first before accepting Gil Jesus's typical misrepresentation of the evidence.

Bye.

JohnM

And here's the April American Rifleman Kleins ad.

Who cares what the add in April was? By then the BY photos had already been taken, if the official narrative is to be believed.

If any rifle was sent at all, there is no reason to assume that a 40" MC rifle was sent instead of a 36".
According to Waldman C20-T750 was ordered and C20-T750 was sent. There is no mention of a 40" rifle being sent.
In fact Waldman doesn't even know (he only has reason to believe) that the rifle that was ordered was in fact shipped with a scope mounted.

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.


You boys should have consulted me first before accepting Gil Jesus's typical misrepresentation of the evidence.

Hilarious...never in a million years. You can't even be believed when you claim your name is Mytton!

[Martin Weidmann]

What a stupid leap of self serving convenience, Jerry didn't say that at all.

JohnM

Since when does Jerry need you to answer a question directed to him?

[Martin Weidmann]

Thanks, John. You handled it better than I would have. Don't want anybody thinking I believed Waldman lied under oath or some shadowy figures forged microfilm.

BTW, I wonder how many people thought those ads in the back of 1960s magazines were 100% reliable or up-to-date. They must have been disappointed when their X-Ray Specs didn't work or the ants on the Ant Farm weren't wearing overalls. It's like Ralphy slugging gallons of Ovaltine so he could get his Orphan Annie Secret Society Decoder Pin.

Don't want anybody thinking I believed Waldman lied under oath or some shadowy figures forged microfilm.

Nobody suggested that. Why would you even think about that?

BTW, I wonder how many people thought those ads in the back of 1960s magazines were 100% reliable or up-to-date.

So, what you are actually saying is that ads in 1960's were not reliable or up to date. Ok, but how does this relate to Klein's? Were their adds not reliable? Is that what you are saying, and if so, do you have evidence to support that?

[Martin Weidmann]

Who said all the Klein's ads were always unreliable?

The February ad in question (Honest JohnM provided the right one) showed that if one ordered an individual Carcano, the ad showed a M91 (originally 50" but shortened) and the text said it would be 36" long and 5 1/2 lbs. If one believes that ad was literally accurate, then they must believe Klein's was mailing out M91s that weighed 5 1/2 lbs.

One reason why I believe they were filling orders with the Carcano M91/38 40" Short Rifles was the price $12.88. It costed Klein's a dollar more-per-unit to purchase the Short Rifles when the smaller TS model (which had been selling at $11.88) was no longer available. The April ad showed the specs were a bit more accurate (40" length and 7 lbs), and the price was $12.88.

Who said all the Klein's ads were always unreliable?

Nobody. I just asked you for clarification about what you said.

The February ad in question (Honest JohnM provided the right one) showed that if one ordered an individual Carcano, the ad showed a M91 (originally 50" but shortened) and the text said it would be 36" long and 5 1/2 lbs. If one believes that ad was literally accurate, then they must believe Klein's was mailing out M91s that weighed 5 1/2 lbs.

Honest JohnM? Really... do you want me to take you seriously?

As for the February ad, regardless of what it showed (and I'll take your word for it as far as the image goes, as I have no knowledge about rifles), the description of the rifle on offer was pretty clear. They offered a 36" long MC rifle, so if I had ordered one, that's what I would expect to receive.

One reason why I believe they were filling orders with the Carcano M91/38 40" Short Rifles was the price $12.88. It costed Klein's a dollar more-per-unit to purchase the Short Rifles when the smaller TS model (which had been selling at $11.88) was no longer available. The April ad showed the specs were a bit more accurate (40" length and 7 lbs), and the price was $12.88.

There are two problems with this reasoning. First of all, the rifle wasn't ordered from the April add and was in fact - if the official narrative is to be believed - already shipped and photographed in Oswald's hands before the April add was actually published and, secondly, Klein's gunsmith, Westra, is on record, in the HSCA files, that Klein's did not mount scopes on 40" rifles.

And then there is this;

One reason why I believe they were filling orders with the Carcano M91/38 40" Short Rifles was the price $12.88.

If Klein's was sending out rifles that were not really ordered, instead of those that were ordered, how can they be considered to be reliable?