The LHO Escape -- Panic and Shock

[Martin Weidmann]

It really is bizarre, earlier when I confronted Martin about the enormity of his endless allegations he tried to cover his tracks and said that Oswald may have sent the coupon, but, and listen to this, then Kliens who received a normal order on a normal day didn't do their normal procedure and apparently we don't know what happened to the rifle. And he's serious!?!?
Kleins had a post office address but for some reason we don't know what happened to the rifle, like what the F? The extent that a devout contrarian will go to keep the rifle out of Oswald's hands is beyond belief. I mean there can be value in playing devils advocate but surely common sense and what happens in the real world must be considered.

And later the unfocused Martin with an inexistent game plan forgets about Oswald's transaction with Kliens and tries a new tact and says that the FBI, Oooh the evil FBI had possession of the microfilm and implies that they altered the microfilm to insert Oswald/Hidell into Kleins records but how does this event tie into Oswald being photographed with a rifle 8 months earlier, were the Conspirators just lucky that Oswald just happened to be photographed with a rifle and revolver?

I can understand why you have Martin on your "ignore list" he keeps writing checks that he can't cash and then ludicrously demands that we prove that he has money in the bank!

JohnM

When LNs start complaining about a person who disagrees with them, rather than discuss the case itself, you know they have already lost the argument.

It really is bizarre, earlier when I confronted Martin about the enormity of his endless allegations he tried to cover his tracks and said that Oswald may have sent the coupon, but, and listen to this, then Kliens who received a normal order on a normal day didn't do their normal procedure and apparently we don't know what happened to the rifle. And he's serious!?!?

Yes, he is serious. You keep on forgetting / ignoring that Hidell ordered a rifle (C20 - T750) from Klein's department 358! That's a 36" MC rifle, which, as it turned out Klein's no longer had in stock. Your idiotic assumption that Klein's simply would have sent another rifle is merely an assumption. There isn't a shred of proof for it. So, indeed, we do not know what happened to the Hidell order. Perhaps it was cancelled, because they could not fill the order. Who knows? Nobody, and that's the point!

Kleins had a post office address but for some reason we don't know what happened to the rifle, like what the F? The extent that a devout contrarian will go to keep the rifle out of Oswald's hands is beyond belief. I mean there can be value in playing devils advocate but surely common sense and what happens in the real world must be considered.

And there we have it. Whenever an LN can not produce evidence he uses the "common sense" argument, as if common sense (which is another word for pure speculation) somehow is actual evidence. It's pathetic.

And later the unfocused Martin with an inexistent game plan forgets about Oswald's transaction with Kliens and tries a new tact and says that the FBI, Oooh the evil FBI had possession of the microfilm and implies that they altered the microfilm to insert Oswald/Hidell into Kleins records but how does this event tie into Oswald being photographed with a rifle 8 months earlier, were the Conspirators just lucky that Oswald just happened to be photographed with a rifle and revolver?

Another example of flawed reasoning. Yes, Oswald was photographed holding a rifle, but you clearly can not prove that it was CE2766. I've asked you to do so a number of times and you have failed completely. If the rifle in the photograph isn't CE2766 your entire reasoning falls flat on it's face.

So, why don't you stop complaining and simply provide the evidence for your absurd claims?

Btw, yesterday I was photographed sitting behind the wheel of a F1 car. Does that now mean that I own that car?

[John Mytton]

Btw, yesterday I was photographed sitting behind the wheel of a F1 car. Does that now mean that I own that car?

Well Martin, if you paid for it, there was a record of the money you sent in your handwriting, you filled out the order form in your handwriting, if the order form was addressed to your PO Box, the company that sent it had a record of you buying it, you were photographed with the F1, the F1 at your workplace had the same licence plate that the company sent, and your wife saw the F1's spoiler poking out from behind a car cover then yeah sure, I'd be absolutely certain that you own the F1 car!

Oops, that didn't work out how you guessed it would, did it! Hehehe!

JohnM

[Michael T. Griffith]

Would LHO have planned to shoot the president, without also planning an escape? Or did he see something happen on Elm Street that caused him to abandon his escape plan and flee the SBD in panic? 
    After the shooting, LHO behaved in a confused manner.  Walking, bus and taxi took him home, where he grabbed a jacket and pistol, which he could easily have taken to work that morning.  He had no disguise prepared, but went back out on the street anyway, leading to his tragic encounter with Officer Tippit, and to his later arrest. If LHO was cool and coldhearted enough to murder a president, why did he fall apart afterwards? 
      The Mortal Error theory -- that Secret Service agent George Hickey accidentally fired his AR-15 rifle and hit JFK in the head -- may provide an answer.
     As the presidential limo continued down Elm Street, LHO was watching thru his telescopic sight.  His first shot missed, his second shot hit JFK in the upper back, and, as he was lining up his third shot, he would have seen JFK's skull explode from Hickey's AR-15 shot(s).  Instantly, LHO would have known there was another shooter, and that suddenly he was part of something that looked like someone else's assassination plan. He might have felt like a "patsy." The shock of that belief might have sent him into a panic. Thinking he now needed a pistol to defend himself, did he abandon whatever plan he might have prepared, and run helter-skelter for his life?

The Mortal Error theory has been soundly debunked, yet it keeps reappearing from time to time.

Oswald showed no signs of "panic" when he was confronted by a pistol-waving Officer Marrion Baker barely a minute after the shooting, according to Officer Baker's own account. (I acknowledge the evidence that Baker may have fabricated the encounter and that the encounter may not have happened, but I quote Baker's account because all WC defenders still accept it as valid.)

Nor did Oswald show any signs of "panic" right after he left his rooming house. Ms. Roberts said that when she looked out the window shortly after Oswald left the house, she saw him standing near the street.

[Martin Weidmann]

Well Martin, if you paid for it, there was a record of the money you sent in your handwriting, you filled out the order form in your handwriting, if the order form was addressed to your PO Box, the company that sent it had a record of you buying it, you were photographed with the F1, the F1 at your workplace had the same licence plate that the company sent, and your wife saw the F1's spoiler poking out from behind a car cover then yeah sure, I'd be absolutely certain that you own the F1 car!

Oops, that didn't work out how you guessed it would, did it! Hehehe!

JohnM

It worked out fine, because you, foolishly and without being able to provide conclusive evidence for it, make the same mistake as you did with the BY photograph. There you assume that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photo is in fact the one that Hidell ordered from Klein's. It is in no way certain that it is.

Even if Hidell did order a rifle from Klein's and even if Klein's shipped a rifle to Oswald's P.O. box and even if Marina saw a rifle in the blanket at Ruth Paine's garage, in late September, that still does not prove that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photograph is the same one and/or the same rifle as the one found at the TSBD. In other words, there is no proof whatsoever that Oswald owned the rifle he was photographed with, just as I don't own the F1 car I was photographed with.

That's where your little fairytale story crashes every time, yet you keep telling the same story, expecting a different outcome..... Go figure.

Do you understand what I am saying or should I dumb it down even further for you?

[Fergus O'Brien]

well Mr mytton i think gil jesus has done some very good work in regards the rifle . i dont know if he is still a member here . but its worth repeating what he has previously pointed out .

"A second issue I have with the order form and the order blank has to do with the catalog number. The catalog number for the rifle in the Klein's ad was C20-T750. It described a 36" rifle ( B, below ), while the catalog number for the 40" rifle, like the one found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, was slightly different, C20-750 ( C, below ). The catalog number for the 36" rifle was on the order blank ( above, Cadigan 3-A ) and the order form ( A, below ). The order form appears to be a document that was generated by the office of Klein's which typed in certain information and then passed it on to the warehouse to fill the order. Klein's control number and the rifle's serial number were then apparently handwritten by warehouse employees whose job it was to fill the orders." gil jesus

regardless of who one may say ordered a rifle the order form and kliens own documentation tell us that on the order was an order for a 36 inch carcano , along with the kliens catalogue number for a 36 inch carcano . then kliens documentation tells us that THEY SAID they sent the same 36 inch rifle , with same catalogue number that was on the order . so if LN accept that both the order and the kliens documentation is genuine well then equally should it then not also be accepted that a 36 inch rifle was ordered and a 36 inch rifle was dispatched ? .





if we accept that kliens did indeed send a 36 inch rifle ? well then LN have a serious problem , because the rifle in evidence is a 40 inch model . LN will of course argue and say well maybe kliens did not have the 36 inch model so they sent the 40 inch model , but that is just assumption not proof .

there are other issues of course . such as oswalds jaggers chiles stoval work records placing him very much in work on the morning and at the very time the money order was bought and posted . LN will of course say OH HE MUST HAVE SLIPPED OUT OF WORK even tho they have not one shred of proof that he did so .

[Martin Weidmann]

well Mr mytton i think gil jesus has done some very good work in regards the rifle . i dont know if he is still a member here . but its worth repeating what he has previously pointed out .

"A second issue I have with the order form and the order blank has to do with the catalog number. The catalog number for the rifle in the Klein's ad was C20-T750. It described a 36" rifle ( B, below ), while the catalog number for the 40" rifle, like the one found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, was slightly different, C20-750 ( C, below ). The catalog number for the 36" rifle was on the order blank ( above, Cadigan 3-A ) and the order form ( A, below ). The order form appears to be a document that was generated by the office of Klein's which typed in certain information and then passed it on to the warehouse to fill the order. Klein's control number and the rifle's serial number were then apparently handwritten by warehouse employees whose job it was to fill the orders." gil jesus

regardless of who one may say ordered a rifle the order form and kliens own documentation tell us that on the order was an order for a 36 inch carcano , along with the kliens catalogue number for a 36 inch carcano . then kliens documentation tells us that THEY SAID they sent the same 36 inch rifle , with same catalogue number that was on the order . so if LN accept that both the order and the kliens documentation is genuine well then equally should it then not also be accepted that a 36 inch rifle was ordered and a 36 inch rifle was dispatched ? .





if we accept that kliens did indeed send a 36 inch rifle ? well then LN have a serious problem , because the rifle in evidence is a 40 inch model . LN will of course argue and say well maybe kliens did not have the 36 inch model so they sent the 40 inch model , but that is just assumption not proof .

there are other issues of course . such as oswalds jaggers chiles stoval work records placing him very much in work on the morning and at the very time the money order was bought and posted . LN will of course say OH HE MUST HAVE SLIPPED OUT OF WORK even tho they have not one shred of proof that he did so .

Interesting,

So when Mytton says;

Forgets that Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750

JohnM

he is in fact (and what else is new?) misrepresenting the facts, as the catalog number for the 40" rifle was C20-750.

[Martin Weidmann]

If Kleins was faithful to the advertisement, they would have been mailing out modified M91s that were originally over 50" long (that's the illustration in the ad). As well, no Carcano military issue weighed 5.5 lbs.

So, we can't rely on anything that Klein's told us? Is that what you are trying to say?