When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

In that case, you're either blind or a prevaricator.

Which is it?

I could say the same thing about you but I believe in observing civility norms.

Besides I explained in detail what I see and why I disagree. It is readily apparent that JFK turns from about an 11 o’clock direction to 10 o’clock. Jackie turns from about 10 o’clock to 9:30. Those don’t appear to be unusual at all. Nellie and JBC turn from sharp left to about forward.  A bit quicker and larger turn, but still nothing really unusual.


So why don’t you describe the changes you see between frame z139, z144 and z150 and give us your sense of where they are all facing.

[Andrew Mason]

It’s telling that you left out Woodward’s reporting that the limo came “nearly to a halt” after the “backfire-like” missing-everything first shot.

As you and I both know, the limo didn’t slow down nearly to a halt until after JFK (and JBC) had been wounded (by CE-399) around Z-222.

The fact that she said that is an indication that she confused what occurred after Z-222 with what happened after Oswald’s “backfire-like” missing-everything shot at “Z-124.”

That, plus the fact that JFK didn’t start waving to Woodward and Co. until Z-175, is confirmation that my analysis is correct: Woodward jumbled the events surrounding the first and second shots.

But at least she was correct in saying there were three shots and that the first shot missed everything.

The problem you have with Woodward’s hazy sense that JFK was not hit on the first shot is that there are at least 25 witnesses who reported seeing him react to the first shot.  We don’t even know what she was watching and even she says that things were a little hazy.  Finally, her insistence that the second and third shots were rapid eliminates the possibility that the first shot missed.

[Tom Graves]

Why don’t you describe the changes you see between frame z139, z144 and z150 and give us your sense of where [the limo's passengers] are all facing?

In Z-139, JFK, who has been waving to spectators on his right (but not yet to Mary Woodward and Co. who are further down the street towards Zapruder), has begun quickly turning his head to his left in Jackie's direction. He looks in that direction for about a second and then, by Z-160, starts turning his head back to his right. By Z-175, he has turned his head far to his right and has started waving to Woodward and Co.

In Z-139, Jackie is already looking somewhat to her left. By Z-144 she starts turning her head farther to her left and "maxes out" in that direction by Z-161 when Robert Croft "captures" her with a concerned look on her face.

Around Z-139, Connally, who has been looking to his right and who heard Oswald's first shot less than a second earlier, turns his head even farther to his right and then, at Z-150, starts turning it quickly to his left and is "captured" looking "straight ahead" in the Croft photo. Then, around Z-165, he starts turning his head to his far right in a vain attempt to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder. 

Nellie, who has been looking more or less straight ahead, begins turning her head far to her right by Z-144.

Kellerman, who has been looking more or less straight ahead, begins looking to his right/down by Z-148.


What else would you like to know?

[Tom Graves]

There are at least 25 witnesses who reported seeing JFK's reacting to the first shot.

Those 25 witnesses evidently mistook the "backfire-like" sound of Oswald's first shot at "Z-124" as a backfire, a firecracker, or maybe even a blowout.

That, coupled with the fact that JFK's "startle reaction" was undoubtedly too subtle to be observable, the fact that his and Jackie's conscious head turning around Z-139 evoked their inquisitiveness, if anything, and the fact that the first shot missed everything, led them to mistakenly believe that Oswald's second shot around Z-222 was his first one -- for the simple reason that JFK's and JBC's reactions were quite noticeable only after they were both wounded by CE-399.

[Andrew Mason]

Those 25 witnesses evidently mistook the "backfire-like" sound of Oswald's first shot at "Z-124" as a backfire, a firecracker, or maybe even a blowout.

And, apparently, these 25 witnesses never twigged to it being the first shot even after hearing two more - which they then realized were shots.  And most of them still recalled 3 shots but never thought the first noise was a shot..... You are joking, right?

That, coupled with the fact that JFK's "startle reaction" was undoubtedly too subtle to be observable, the fact that his and Jackie's conscious head turning around Z-139 evoked their inquisitiveness, if anything, and the fact that the first shot missed everything, led them to mistakenly believe that Oswald's second shot around Z-222 was his first one -- for the simple reason that JFK's and JBC's reactions were quite noticeable only after they were both wounded by CE-399.

You are using a circular argument.  You are using your conclusion that an early shot occurred to explain what you think is a subtle "startle reaction" of JFK and Jackie's very slight head turn farther to the left and then using those reactions to bolster your argument that there was an early missed shot.  You need evidence that a first shot occurred there first.  And the problem you have (as Dan O'Meara has also been explaining) is that all the evidence - literally several dozen witnesses - is completely inconsistent with an early missed first shot.

[Tom Graves]

You are using your conclusion that an early shot occurred to explain what you think is a subtle "startle reaction" of JFK and Jackie's very slight head turn farther to the left and then using those reactions to bolster your argument that there was an early missed shot.

We don't know how subtle or gross JFK's (or anyone else's) startle reaction was to Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot, half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 because . . . well . . . Zapruder wasn't filming at the time.

Typically, however, a startle reaction to an unexpected loud noise is a not-very-noticeable hunching of the shoulders.

It is therefore understandable that no one noticed JFK's "startle reaction" to that early shot.

Thank God that Mary Woodward noticed and wrote down JFK's quickly turning and Jackie's accelerated turning of their heads, consciously and in a quizzical manner, about a second after said "backfire-like" first shot.

It's a pity, though, that she conflated other things that happened before and after said shot with what happened before and after the second shot, as indicated by her reporting that the limo "nearly came to a halt" after the first shot.

[Andrew Mason]

Thank God that Mary Woodward noticed and wrote down JFK's quickly turning and Jackie's accelerated turning of their heads, consciously and in a quizzical manner, about a second after said "backfire-like" first shot.

She said "The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed.  .... After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise....".   She was describing the initial positions of JFK prior to the last turn and wave.  JFK's right turn begins around z165 and his wave at z172. Jackie's right turn begins a bit later around z174.  She was describing turns and waves that occurred BEFORE the first "horrible ear-shattering noise" not after.  Kennedy turned forward after looking right and waving and that is when Woodward said the first noise occurred. That is after z193 for sure.

It's a pity, though, that she conflated other things that happened before and after said shot with what happened before and after the second shot, as indicated by her reporting that the limo "nearly came to a halt" after the first shot.

The limo may have slowed down after the first shot and before the second if the second shot was shortly before the third and last shot, which is what she described.