When Was JBC Hit?

[Jerry Organ]

There is abundant evidence that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot and reacted to it. The first shot did not strike JBC in the back but it did not strike the car.  It is very likely that the wrist injury was from the bullet exiting JBC's chest.  But the wound characteristics and the condition of the bullet that caused the wrist wound differ markedly from that of the left thigh wound.  No one seems to have considered that JBC was hit by two bullets, the first one (thigh) which he did not feel (we know that he never felt it).

The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could easily have gone to the left side of JBC.


If it occurred where the witnesses said the first shot occurred (after z186 and before z202) with JBC turned to the right, the left thigh could easily have been in that path. With JFK to the far right so that his midline was immediately behind JBC's right shoulder (which is farther right than he was) this could have been the view of JBC that he saw before the first shot.

Shhhhh! ... (Don't tell Mason his figure placements are ridiculous. It's Christmas.)

[John Mytton]

Shhhhh! ... (Don't tell Mason his figure placements are ridiculous. It's Christmas.)

I have to agree, Andrew's 3D characters don't look to be in the right position at the time of the SBF, whereas yours being corroborated with the Croft photo are much more accurate and are perfectly lined up fof the SBF. Very nice work.

Btw, the Knott Lab's 3D artists could learn a thing or two from you.

JohnM

[Andrew Mason]

Shhhhh! ... (Don't tell Mason his figure placements are ridiculous. It's Christmas.)

The question is whether a 12-14 degree right to left trajectory through JFK's midline/neck between z186 and z202 could, within the range of error in determining the relative positions of the two men from the zfilm, put the left thigh on a path from the SN through JFK's neck. That path could be either completely straight or with a possible slight shift in direction due to bullet instability after exiting JFK.

Your position seems to be that it could not be the first shot; that the shot through JFK occurred later on the second shot at z224 or thereabouts. That does not address the possibility (based on the amount of evidence, I would suggest it is a high probability) that the first shot, not the second, struck both men. You simply disagree with the evidence and refuse to consider that possibility.  It would be more helpful to use your considerable ability with 3D graphics to put the two men together as they appear in z195 and tell us where a bullet from the SN through JFK would go.

[Royell Storing]

I have to agree, Andrew's 3D characters don't look to be in the right position at the time of the SBF, whereas yours being corroborated with the Croft photo are much more accurate and are perfectly lined up fof the SBF. Very nice work.

Btw, the Knott Lab's 3D artists could learn a thing or two from you.

JohnM

     All of these "visual aids" concerning Connally are way off. How in any of them does a bullet strike JFK and then possibly hit/go through Connally's WRIST? As they like to say in The South, "You guys are ate up with it". It's this same Lack of "Attention-To-Detail which consistently reveals all of you to be nothing more than Amateurs at best when it comes to lining anything out start-to-finish. You need to recognize your many limitations and work within those confines. Currently, you're embarrassing yourselves.   

[Andrew Mason]

There are inconsistencies between your different views and the photos.  As you point out, you need to raise JFK's shoulders in the rear view to fit with your lateral view and with Croft and Altgens' 5. You also have JFK with his ribs pressing against the side of the car, which does not fit with z195 or z225. I would place him at least an inch farther left and probably 2 inches. His right shoulder is definitely inside the car because the upper arm is extending outward from the shoulder to the top of the car:


JBC is also a tad too far left.  The top rear corner of the side window is out of place in your drawing. A sight line from the top rear of the side window frame (connecting the roof support) passes to the right of JBC's nose in Altgens' 5:



You are also using an angle from the SN to JFK of 8.5 degrees.


Even at z223 the right to left angle was 9.9 degrees:

At z188 the right to left angle was 16 degrees:



If you use the angle at z195, which is at least 13 degrees, and if you move JBC a bit right and if you move JFK two inches farther left so his rib cage is not pressing against the side of the car, the path through JFK's neck goes to the left of JBC's spine. With JBC turned right as he is at z185-z200 the shot through JFK would hit the left thigh if it was out to the left as it likely was (he would not sit as you have him with his legs together).

[Zeon Mason]

As Rowell just pointed out, the WRIST wound is the key to aligning (or not) the SBT.

The hat had no hole in it, so theres no way Jerry’s graphic position that shows JC holding his hat upside down BETWEEN  both legs , is possible , because the bullet entered the TOP of JCs right wrist and exited  the BOTTOM of his right hand at the base of the palm.

There’s  only one way possible(imo)  to hold the hat upside down with the  right hand and have no portion of  the hat be in line with the bullet entering the left thigh of JC.

That position is that the well of the upside down hat must be on the Left outer side of the left leg and held in place with the right hand on Top of the rim with mostly just the fingers area  of the hand, while  the lower area of palm of the hand is clear of any portion of the rim.

If This is the the most probable way then it becomes evident that JC most likely had  BOTH his legs turned towards the right as were  his lower torso and his head and his upper shoulder line also oriented at Z223-225

I would hope that the Knotts  lab Scientist technician team would consider examining  this position I’ve proposed as an alternative to their original  positioning of JC to see if the trajectory can be aligned (or not ).

If they still cannot align the trajectory even with this adjustment , and considering some slight deflection of the bullet (slight zigzag) also, THEN I would agree with Royell that the SBT is is improbable, perhaps even approaching impossible.

[Jerry Organ]

How I currently perceive Mason's Pet Theory.

    "The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling
     on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could
     easily have gone to the left side of JBC."



60-degree twist for JBC. (Mason thinks this is "JBC turned right as he is at z185-z200".)

    "if you move JBC a bit right and if you move JFK two inches farther
     left so his rib cage is not pressing against the side of the car"

OK, JFK moved left two inches (though in my model, his rib cage is not up against the car interior). When Mason says "move JBC a bit right", he means more than a bit.

    "hit the left thigh if it was out to the left as it likely was
     (he would not sit as you have him with his legs together)"

How do you know that? Hee hee. More likely both knees were towards the car door as he spent much of his time looking to his right.

Please note that 24" between wounds refers to the "point-to-point distance between Kennedy's neck and the part of Connally's back that was wounded was determined photogrammetrically in the Croft photograph to be approximately 60 centimeters" (6 HSCA 54 ). 60 cm is 23 5/8", so rounded to 24. In my graphic above, there is a 24" distance from the black "wound" dots of JFK and JBC. The JBC drawing is a posterior view from the HSCA and has been flipped, so the back wound is on camera left. The scapulas are not on Connally's chest.

Simpler Version:

[Andrew Mason]

How I currently perceive Mason's Pet Theory.

    "The trajectory from the SN through JFK's neck and travelling
     on a 14 degree right to left 18 degree downward path could
     easily have gone to the left side of JBC."

....

    "hit the left thigh if it was out to the left as it likely was
     (he would not sit as you have him with his legs together)"

How do you know that? Hee hee. More likely both knees were towards the car door as he spent much of his time looking to his right.

I see that you have not tried sitting on a seat on the floor with your knees in the air. Unless you are a eunuch, you would sit with legs apart.