When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

Clint Hill could not hear while running alongside the car you say. Turns out there was nothing to hear by your own admission JBC is wounded before Hill ever leaves the running board.

I have never said JBC was wounded before Hill left the running board. I said:

"He accepts the "theory" that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it (his own observation), that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally (which he did not hear but believes because fellow agents told him), that as he was about to reach the President's car a third shot was fired and struck JFK in the head. "

The statement "that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it" refers to JFK reacting immediately to it.  It was not only Clint Hill who observed this.  Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this.  Woodward just said he turned forward at the moment of the first "horrible ear-shattering noise". [Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.]

That “he reacted immediately and during the run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally.” Also “His mind was focused on getting to the President's car.  He had to run faster than both cars to do that. I expect there was a surge of adrenalin in his body.  He also commented that the noise of the car engine as he was right beside it may have affected his hearing.”

"that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally (which he did not hear but believes because fellow agents told him),"

One problem with all your drivel, Hill is still standing on the running board looking at JFK in Z255 in the Altgens photo. JBC is already reacting to having been shot two seconds earlier.

Not if JBC and Nellie were correct that he was hit on the second shot.  According to Altgens there was only one shot to that point. And not according to SA Hickey who is still facing backward at z255. He said he turned forward and was looking at JFK at the time of the second shot.  Greer also said he turned in response to, and almost simultaneously with, the second shot. He turns rearward for the first time between about z278 and z283.

You never answered this part of the earlier post. Maybe take another shot at it. I would hate for you to miss your time to shine.

“Yes. But he certainly said he was sure he was not hit in the back by the first because of the perceptible time difference between hearing the first shot, turning to see JFK and then feeling the forceful impact of the bullet that hit him in the back”

But Jackie and Nellie confirm that it was the first shot. According to you, it was OK for other people to tell Clint Hill that he was wrong, but now according to you JBC is somehow different? Jackie was not running anywhere, and she never heard a third shot. As did a very large number of other eyewitnesses. What is your excuse for them? They went deaf because they were standing or sitting there? What about all the eyewitnesses who place the second shot as the head shot. They went deaf and then regained their hearing for a third shot as the car accelerated?
 
This disjointed theory requires three shots and evidence of them. Can you prove three shots? Where is the evidence of three shots and three hits? Don't be shy, post it all. Torture all the witness statements that you want but when you are done how about provide the physical evidence that proves it. You have been at this a long time you must have a treasure trove of evidence to be posted. Can't wait to see it.

No. I can't prove it to your satisfaction. You think 132 witnesses (as compiled for the HSCA who reported hearing exactly three shots) and this distribution of witness recollections as to the number of shots means there were only two shots:

[Zeon Mason]

Can’t dismiss that overwhelming majority who heard 3 shots, so that part of Andrews 3 shots theory ( and the WC too) is probably correct.

But how can we dismiss the movement of JC’s right shoulder moving forward so abruptly at Z224-226 and his right hand abruptly raising up clutching his hat, and his lapel flap movement , as not a reaction to being struck by a bullet?

And since there is 1 SS agent at Z160 standing on the right side of the follow car with his head turned sharply looking to the LEFT side of the car , and the SS agent just behind Clint Hill is also looking LEFT also , and Clint Hill himself is not exactly looking straight at JFK like he was supposed to be doing,

And since there’s some question about the Willis girl stopping at Z195 not exactly at the moment of hearing a shot then but more probably took a couple of seconds to stop having after heard a shot at Z160

Yet Betzner and Wlllis father, and Altgens and the man grinning in the car that Altgens 6 photo captured at Z255. , and Clint Hill just beginning to react at Z255,

Suggest that if there was a Z160 shot then THAT shot  was the suppressed shot which few people heard and the Willis girl hearing that shot could be because she was closer than than others to that shot?

That would explain the grinning man and Clint Hill (not reacting until Z255 ) because they did not hear the Z160 suppressed shot and they heard the first shot as Z224 because that was the beginning of the 3 lids shots. Maybe many other people still clapping and smiling faces like the grinning man, heard  the Z224 shot as the 1sr first shot , thought it was a firecracker joke?

Amos Euins said he heard 4 shots! So maybe because he was even closer than Willis girl was to the origin point of this suppressed Z160 shot, Euins heard that shot plus heard  the other 3 loud shots following after?

Harold Norman only heard the 3 loud shots above him but did not hear the suppressed Z160 shot.

The cumulative result is a Z160 suppressed shot fired from another building than the TSBD , and that building most likely the Daltex building which might explain Willis girl and Euins hearing it and a couple of SS agents hearing it looking left at Z160, yet Betzner, Willis father and Altgens not hearing the shot due to being farther away from Daltex bldg.

So this basically is an addition to Dans Z224 1st shot theory to include a Z160 suppressed shot that explains Willis girl stopping by Z195 and why Betzer and Willis and Altgens only heard 1 shot prior to Z255.

[Jack Nessan]

Mason; I have never said JBC was wounded before Hill left the running board. I said:

Mason;"He accepts the "theory" that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it (his own observation), that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally (which he did not hear but believes because fellow agents told him), that as he was about to reach the President's car a third shot was fired and struck JFK in the head. "

The statement "that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it" refers to JFK reacting immediately to it.  It was not only Clint Hill who observed this.  Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this.  Woodward just said he turned forward at the moment of the first "horrible ear-shattering noise". [Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.]
Not if JBC and Nellie were correct that he was hit on the second shot.  According to Altgens there was only one shot to that point. And not according to SA Hickey who is still facing backward at z255. He said he turned forward and was looking at JFK at the time of the second shot.  Greer also said he turned in response to, and almost simultaneously with, the second shot. He turns rearward for the first time between about z278 and z283.
No. I can't prove it to your satisfaction. You think 132 witnesses (as compiled for the HSCA who reported hearing exactly three shots) and this distribution of witness recollections as to the number of shots means there were only two shots:

I have never said JBC was wounded before Hill left the running board. I said:
 
"He accepts the "theory" that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it (his own observation), that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally (which he did not hear but believes because fellow agents told him), that as he was about to reach the President's car a third shot was fired and struck JFK in the head. "
 
The statement "that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it" refers to JFK reacting immediately to it.  It was not only Clint Hill who observed this.  Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this.  Woodward just said he turned forward at the moment of the first "horrible ear-shattering noise". [Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.]
 

Apparently you are forgetful. Here is exactly what you posted. 

“He accepts the "theory" that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it (his own observation), that he jumped off the running board and ran to the President's car and during this run another shot was fired that struck Governor Connally”

Your post is directly tied to Hill running and nothing else. Unfortunately for this goofy theory , Clint Hill does not leave the running board and start running to JFK’s limousine until Z310. That would place this mystery shot at Z311. Followed by the head shot at Z313. We know there was a shot at Z313. Anything you would like to add? So much for the Z250 shot.

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Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this. 

The statement "that the first shot struck JFK and he reacted immediately to it" refers to JFK reacting immediately to it. Every witness who was watching JFK at the time, with the possible exception of Mary Woodward, noticed this. Woodward just said he turned forward at the moment of the first "horrible ear-shattering noise".

No, let me help you. Woodward stated “he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us” 

Good for you Andrew, it has taken 10+ years but you finally clued in and accepted the fact that all the eyewitnesses state JFK reacted to the first shot. Seriously, it has taken you a long time to grasp things. I am glad you finally did. This realization on your part ends the goofy early Z190 shot?

Mary Woodward's correct quote explains that JFK had turned forward before the first shot. He did not turn forward until Z207. Picking her as a witness to promote a shot at Z190 seems strange. Her statement does not confirm your theory it dismisses it.

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Not if JBC and Nellie were correct that he was hit on the second shot.  According to Altgens there was only one shot to that point. And not according to SA Hickey who is still facing backward at z255. He said he turned forward and was looking at JFK at the time of the second shot.  Greer also said he turned in response to, and almost simultaneously with, the second shot. He turns rearward for the first time between about z278 and z283.
 
You can’t quote Nellie and JBC without quoting Jackie’s and Nellie’s confirming statements of JBC being struck by the first shot. Altgens is a two shot witness. SA Hickey stated “the second and third shot so close together they sound like one shot and the impact of the bullet made his hair fly forward.” Greer turned twice not once. The last time at Z305. His second shot has him accelerating the same as SA Kellerman. According to SA Greer he did not even wait for Kellerman to instruct him to accelerate.

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No. I can't prove it to your satisfaction. You think 132 witnesses (as compiled for the HSCA who reported hearing exactly three shots) and this distribution of witness recollections as to the number of shots means there were only two shots:

No, it is about proof of any kind. Earwitnesses are not proof of anything except there was an assassination. You can’t prove it all to anyone's satisfaction. This cherry picked earwitness compilation with no parameters governing the compilation is nothing but the sum total of what you think is evidence. All someone had to say was three shots and that was good enough for you. You are no longer quoting Elizabeth Loftus?

What happened to your so called “follow the evidence” garbage constantly being claimed all these years.  The bullet and shell information alone proves you wrong. Your Clint Hill posts are a perfect example of it how the evidence completely proves your theory is nonsense and the only thing you are following is your whim and fancy.

[Andrew Mason]

Your post is directly tied to Hill running and nothing else. Unfortunately for this goofy theory , Clint Hill does not leave the running board and start running to JFK’s limousine until Z310.

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.

No, let me help you. Woodward stated “he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us” 

I said “with possible exception of Woodward. It depends on the time difference between the forward turn and the muzzle blast reaching her ears.  The forward turn just before she heard the sound of the shot could be from the impact of the bullet if it was 100ms before the sound reached her. That was the point of my Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.

Good for you Andrew, it has taken 10+ years but you finally clued in and accepted the fact that all the eyewitnesses state JFK reacted to the first shot. Seriously, it has taken you a long time to grasp things. I am glad you finally did. This realization on your part ends the goofy early Z190 shot?

You must be confusing me with someone else. I have always maintained that JFK reacted to the first shot. His reaction is gradual. It starts after the impact between z186 (Betzner) and z202 (Phil Willis) with the gradual realization that something is wrong. Jackie turns her head directly toward him as they go behind the sign -watch her hat turn. The change of facial expression and movement of hands is complete when he is seen again in z223 and z224. The reaction then becomes panic-like at z226, perhaps when he tries to take a breath and he experiences difficulty breathing.

Mary Woodward's correct quote explains that JFK had turned forward before the first shot. He did not turn forward until Z207. Picking her as a witness to promote a shot at Z190 seems strange. Her statement does not confirm your theory it dismisses it.

He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

[Jack Nessan]

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.I said “with possible exception of Woodward. It depends on the time difference between the forward turn and the muzzle blast reaching her ears.  The forward turn just before she heard the sound of the shot could be from the impact of the bullet if it was 100ms before the sound reached her. That was the point of my Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.
You must be confusing me with someone else. I have always maintained that JFK reacted to the first shot. His reaction is gradual. It starts after the impact between z186 (Betzner) and z202 (Phil Willis) with the gradual realization that something is wrong. Jackie turns her head directly toward him as they go behind the sign -watch her hat turn. The change of facial expression and movement of hands is complete when he is seen again in z223 and z224. The reaction then becomes panic-like at z226, perhaps when he tries to take a breath and he experiences difficulty breathing.He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.

"Quite awhile," are you joking, No, Hill only takes 4 to 5 steps and he then grabs the back of the Limo. He does not exit the SS car until around Z310. Sorry but it is the harsh reality of it. Maybe before you came up with this odd theory with Hill you should have done a little more homework.


I said “with possible exception of Woodward. It depends on the time difference between the forward turn and the muzzle blast reaching her ears.  The forward turn just before she heard the sound of the shot could be from the impact of the bullet if it was 100ms before the sound reached her. That was the point of my Note: at that distance 200 feet from the SN, the sound arrives about 100 ms after the bullet. It could be that the turn was in response to the bullet.

Woodward rained on your parade. She is quoted properly and give the pseudo math analysis a rest.


You must be confusing me with someone else. I have always maintained that JFK reacted to the first shot. His reaction is gradual. It starts after the impact between z186 (Betzner) and z202 (Phil Willis) with the gradual realization that something is wrong. Jackie turns her head directly toward him as they go behind the sign -watch her hat turn. The change of facial expression and movement of hands is complete when he is seen again in z223 and z224. The reaction then becomes panic-like at z226, perhaps when he tries to take a breath and he experiences difficulty breathing.
 
You have never maintained anything or you would not have generated so many different scenarios. You drift with every breeze.


He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

No, not blurry at all. At Z206 he is still looking left and waving to the crowd. At Z207 he looks straight ahead and goes behind the sign.

[Zeon Mason]

Wow which one of the 5 theories to choose  from 🤔

1. WC standard : 3 shots from the solitary gunman ( Oswald )using the MC rifle from the SE window 6th floor TSBD  , 1st shot  Z160-170 was a missed shot fired (before Betzner 186 photo) which shot was not heard by Betzner or Willis  2nd shot fired approx at Z224 , the SBT shot, a bullet that went thru 2 bodies , thru flesh and between ribs and thru wrist bone , and was CE 399 , a bullet so marginally deformed that it seems to defy physics.

2. WC (Jack variation)There were only 2 shots fired  from a solitary gunman (Oswald?) using the MC rifle,  1st one at Z224 , and 2nd one at Z313 and that vast majority of witness  that heard 3 shots  must be mistaken.

3. WC (Andrew variation) : 3 shots fired from the solitary gunman (Oswald )using the MC rifle , 1st shot at Z195-200 (thru at least some minimal tree foliage) that hit only JFK. 2nd shot somewhere around Z270 that hit only JC. 3rd shot at Z313 that hit JFK.

4. WC/CT (Dan version) 3 shots fired by solitary gunman ( NOT Oswald however) , from TSBD, using the MC rifle? 1st shot at Z224 hits JFK and JC as per the SBT. 2nd shot is Z313. 3rd shot is about 2 secs later which was just a final unaimed shot ( which hit the curb near Tague?)
 
5. CT (Zeon version) : 4 shots total were fired. 3 loud shots from one gunman in TSBD using a semi auto rifle , 1 suppressed shot by a 2nd gunman in Daltex bldg.
1st shot at Z160-170 was the suppressed shot by Daltex gunman that missed just past JFKs right shoulder. Only a few persons heard this shot . Willis girl slowed and then stopped by Z195 in response to hearing that shot. Amos Euins may have heard that shot also, explaining why he heard 4 shots.
2nd  (1st loud shot heard ) was at Z224 that hit both JFK and JC . That bullet was a pointed bullet found on the stretcher, which had to be replaced with CE399.
3rd (2nd loud shot heard ) shot was between Z224 and Z313 at about Z270 that went slightly high and hit the curb near Tague. That bullet left trace metallic element in the curb that were different than  an MC bullet
4th (3rd loud shot heard) was 313
 
Note: the 3 loud shots were fired in 4.8 seconds with the last 2 just slightly closer together , which matches Harold Normans boom click click 3 shot spacing which he completes in about 4 secs ( in video recordings)  The “click click” could be sound of the shells bouncing on the floor.

[Andrew Mason]

We can see him running between cars in the Nix film. It takes him quite a while because the cars are moving and he has to outrun them. We cannot see him leave the running board in the zfilm. It is quite consistent with the known evidence that he left the QM within a second after Altgens #6, which was taken at z254-255.

"Quite awhile," are you joking, No, Hill only takes 4 to 5 steps and he then grabs the back of the Limo. He does not exit the SS car until around Z310. Sorry but it is the harsh reality of it. Maybe before you came up with this odd theory with Hill you should have done a little more homework.

"quite a while" is 3-4 seconds. He has to step off the running board and get his feet running to keep pace with the QM and then sprint the 15 feet from the running board position to the back of the limo.  But the cars are moving at about 12 mph or 18 feet per second.  From z280 or so appear to slow down to about 12 feet per second from z280 to z320.

So to reach the limo in one second, which is about what you are suggesting, Hill would have to run at an average speed of 27-33 feet per second. That is the speed of an Olympic sprinter running the 100 yard dash in 10 seconds. And sprinters don't do it wearing suits and dress shoes and don't do it leaping off moving cars.

In the Nix film we cannot see Clint Hill leave the running board. He is first seen beside the front part of the QM while JFK is still upright, so it is before the head shot:


At this point he has already jumped off and heading toward the limo so he is well into his run. It is simply not possible that he leapt off at z310.

He turns within a few frames after z193 which is hard to see because of the blur but is apparent by z198.

No, not blurry at all. At Z206 he is still looking left and waving to the crowd. At Z207 he looks straight ahead and goes behind the sign.

The blur is between z193 and z198. JFK in z198 has already turned quite a bit forward. You can see his right ear and can no longer see the left side of his face:


There is not much difference between z198 and z207:

You can also see Jackie's head turn from looking at the crowd on the right at z187 to looking directly at JFK before z207: