When Was JBC Hit?

[Charles Collins]

If that was the case then the SBT would be correct.  But if that were the case why are they so many witnesses who recalled that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot by doing things we don’t see him doing until after he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign? why are there so many witnesses who said the last two shots were in rapid succession? why are witnesses consistent with the first shot being after z186 (Betzner) after the VP car had completed the turn and going downhill? An instant before z202 (Philip Willis)? etc?

“We” don’t know that. John Connally said he knew that was not the case. Nellie C. as well. At least three members of the WC didn’t believe it and none of those that did said they thought it was the second shot.
There are at least 8 jiggles. Besides, there would have to be 2 frames between the bullet strike and the sound arriving at Zapruder’s ears and then a frame or two to react.
And Mary Woodward said that she shouted at the President as he approached and he and Jackie turned to their right and the President acknowledged them as the car passed by. She was certain they were the last people he acknowledged before that first horrible ear-shattering noise.

The Warren Commission said that they were unable to conclude which one of the three shots missed. The HSCA concluded that the first shot missed. I tend to agree with the first shot missed theory, and have found numerous items that suggest that this theory is correct. However, I have not been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

 I have not yet given the idea of the third shot missing very much consideration. This is mostly due to my opinion that it does not make any sense for someone to shoot again, after seeing JFK’s head explode. But I do consider that it is possible that there was a third shot that missed. Charles Brehm indicated that he thought that the third shot missed everything. In my imagination, I suppose that if LHO was firing and cycling the bolt as fast as he could, that he might automatically cycle the bolt after the head shot. Then after seeing JFK had gone down and Jackie was crawling on the trunk lid, he might have instinctively not wanted to shoot Jackie and moved his aim away from her. And if he had his finger on the trigger, it is feasible that he inadvertently fired the third shot over the limo. These are just some ideas that I have had. Perhaps a closer look at a possible third shot miss is in order?

[Zeon Mason]

If theres any agreement that Z224 was the 1st shot , then there was about 4.8 secs for 2nd shot head shot followed 1-2 sec later by a 3rd shot that missed high and struck the curb near Tague.

That would certainly preserve the 1….2..3 spacing as majority heard by witness.

The other alternative .. a missed 1st shot that precedes the Z224 2nd shot, is difficult to fit in between Betzner Z186 and Willis Z205 which is the approx Z195 -200 range, because that’s 1.5 sec between 1st and 2nd Z224  shot , therefore not likely both shots to be fired by the same MC rifle.

Now maybe Charles could be on the right track to suggest a shot that was very close just after the Z313 head shot .
A 3rd MC rifle shot not aimed, just loaded fast as possible and fired high, perhaps in 2.0 secs?

It could be the same phenomenon of memory that witness could hear 2 shots spaced only 2 secs apart as “back to back” because of the longer preceding gap of silence of 4.8 secs between Z224 and Z313.

My pet (CT) theory is a solitary  shooter used a semi auto rifle and that after he waited the 4.8 secs after shooting 1st shot at Z224 , he intended to shoot shots 2&3 as rapid final shots and that 2nd shot at Z313 hit while the 3rd shot about 0.5-1 sec later,  went high due to muzzle rise effect when firing a semi auto rapidly.

From a CT perspective, this resolves the reason for the chain of custody issues and insignificant deformation of CE 399 because the bullet witness saw on the stretcher, WAS a pointed bullet and NOT the ball nosed 6.5 mm MC bullet. That bullet went to FBI and was switched with CE 399 later after a false report made attributed to FBI  agent Odum because the witness did NOT identify CE 399.

It’s kind of same thing the WC did  with V.Adams and Lovelady/Shelley, changing things a bit to make their theory fit.

[Jack Nessan]

  Wrong, the physical evidence DOES support 3 shots, but you go ahead and believe that there are not three distinct sudden physical motions by both men in the limousine. Your credibilty is a stake.

   Zapruder's camera doesn't lie.   Zapruder wasn't counting the shots as they went off, and within hours of the assassination, he didn't know for sure that he heard 2 or 3 shots.  Watch his interview with Jay Watson, WFAA-TV.  "...[T]hen I heard another shot or two..."  after having earlier seen the "president slump to the side-like this".   Zapruder was a two or three shot witness.

Jiggle analysis shows Zapruder reacted to a shot he never heard? 

There was a shot at Z155 when Zapruder clearly describes JFK was hit by the first shot?

Zapruder is wrong when he then clearly describes JFK has been struck in the head by the second shot.

Zapruder still maintained there were only two shots during his WC testimony.
Jay Watson is the problem. He told Bill Newman how many shots there were according to him as well as doing the same with Zapruder. This is exactly what the WC and HSCA meant when they stated "The media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots"

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].
Mr. LIEBELER - That's all right, Mr. Zapruder, would you like a drink of water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I'm sorry--I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't help it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
[/u]

There is no mistaking what Zapruder thought. Jiggle Analysis on a person who only heard two shots can only indicate there were two shots. If not, then question Jiggle Analysis not Zapruder.
 

The physical evidence clearly indicates there were only two shots. Creating a shot to validate earwitness testimony is not evidence. Especially when so many eyewitnesses describe a different shooting sequence.

 

[Andrew Mason]

Jay Watson is the problem. He told Bill Newman how many shots there were according to him as well as doing the same with Zapruder. This is exactly what the WC and HSCA meant when they stated "The media influenced the witnesses into inflating the number of shots".

Watson was on the air continuously up to the time he interviewed Zapruder and we can see that he didn’t have any opportunity to meet with him. It is apparent from the beginning of the interview that Watson was meeting Zapruder for the first time, just after Zapruder had walked into the studio.

Zapruder’s uncertainty about the number of shots may be because he was concentrating on watching the President and relying more on visual cues. He observed effects from only two shots.

[Andrew Mason]

If theres any agreement that Z224 was the 1st shot , then there was about 4.8 secs for 2nd shot head shot followed 1-2 sec later by a 3rd shot that missed high and struck the curb near Tague.

That would certainly preserve the 1….2..3 spacing as majority heard by witness.

The other alternative .. a missed 1st shot that precedes the Z224 2nd shot, is difficult to fit in between Betzner Z186 and Willis Z205 which is the approx Z195 -200 range, because that’s 1.5 sec between 1st and 2nd Z224  shot , therefore not likely both shots to be fired by the same MC rifle.

The first shot after z186 (Betzner, motorcade witnesses, Woodward, etc) and just before z202 (Phil Willis), with the last at z312~z313, fits the shot pattern if the second shot was just before the head shot.

George Hickey said he turned forward just before the second shot and Wm Greer said he turned to the rear (for the first of his two turns to the rear) just after it. Hickey turned forward after z255 (he is turned rearward in Altgen’s #6) and Greer turns rearward starting about z280.

A second shot at about z271 not only fits that evidence but fits the perception of the shooter firing the last two shots as quickly as possible as the target moves away. It also fits Hickey’s recollection of seeing the hair on the right side of JFK’s hair fly up at the time of the second shot.

[Dan O'meara]

Just wanted to repost this excellent gif posted earlier by Steve:



I've never noticed the upward double thrusting movement of JBC's shoulder before but it is clear as day.
I believe the 'doubling' of this movement reveals two very different reactions.
The first reaction is the instantaneous physical reaction when two objects collide. There is no delay in this reaction, it is instantaneous. This happens when the bullet physically collides with, and destroys, a relatively large section of JBC's rib. This collision causes JBC's torso to rotate, his right side being thrust forward and downwards causing his left shoulder to be thrust backwards and upwards.
The second reaction is his body's reflex reaction to such a massive trauma. This reaction takes place within a z-frame or two after the initial trauma and is totally reflexive, that is to say there is no conscious decision being made, it is an automatic response of the body to trauma. It is at the same time as this second upward thrust of his shoulder that we see JBC's Stetson suddenly leaping up in front of his face.

We see the white of JBC's shirt cuff instantly disappearing below the door frame as the wrist is struck by the bullet.
JBC's body rotates and we see the first 'shoulder lift'.
The right side of JBC's jacket bulges forward as debris is blown out of his chest as his body continues to rotate.
We see the second shoulder lift as JBC's body reacts to the trauma and the first sign of his Stetson as it moves incredibly quickly upwards.

When the Z-film is rolled on from this point we see that JBC's wrist is being held at a really unnatural angle due to the massive damage it has suffered.
Much has been made of JBC continuing to hold onto his Stetson but I believe his hand has suffered nerve damage and he couldn't let go of it if he wanted to.

One last note - using this analysis it is possible to pinpoint the exact moment both men are shot through, between z222 and z223.
There is truly overwhelming evidence that this is when the first shot happens.

[Andrew Mason]

Just wanted to repost this excellent gif posted earlier by Steve:



I've never noticed the upward double thrusting movement of JBC's shoulder before but it is clear as day.
I believe the 'doubling' of this movement reveals two very different reactions.
The first reaction is the instantaneous physical reaction when two objects collide. There is no delay in this reaction, it is instantaneous. This happens when the bullet physically collides with, and destroys, a relatively large section of JBC's rib. This collision causes JBC's torso to rotate, his right side being thrust forward and downwards causing his left shoulder to be thrust backwards and upwards.

There is no question that conservation of momentum will apply. But the problem is that the impact is to JBC’s right armpit not his shoulder. And it is downward. There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.

Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames 

[Dan O'meara]

There is no question that conservation of momentum will apply. But the problem is that the impact is to JBC’s right armpit not his shoulder. And it is downward. There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.

Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames

There is no way the impact momentum lifted the right shoulder.

 
Oh boy, you really need to read the posts you are responding to.
Of course there is no way that a downward impact to the right side of JBC's torso will cause his right shoulder to lift.
The Z-film shows his LEFT SHOULDER lifting.
I posted the following:

"This collision causes JBC's torso to rotate, his right side being thrust forward and downwards causing his left shoulder to be thrust backwards and upwards."

So, even though you didn't mean to, you are in agreement that a downward impact to the right side of JBC would cause exactly the movement we see in the clip Steve posted.
You are finally getting it.

Second, the ratio of resulting body speed to incoming bullet speed is in inverse proportion to the ratio of their masses. A human male trunk is about 55% of total body mass or about 55 kg for a 100 kg person. So the incoming 10g (.01kg) bullet at 450 m/s (1500 fps) imparts 4.5 kg m/s of momentum to the torso and the torso recoils at a speed of 4.5/55 =.08 m/s or 8 cm/s. That works out to 4.5 mm per frame. You are not going to see sudden motion of the body in one frame or even over 2 or 3 frames


Pure baloney.
The physical collision of two solids transfers momentum instantaneously.
Yet more confirmation that the bullet passed through both men between z222 and z223.

The analysis of the clip Steve posted leaves zero doubt it is at this moment JBC is shot through the chest. If this is the best counter argument you can provide it must finally be time for you to abandon your dead theory. You must accept the arguments being put forward as you have nothing left to counter with.
The disappearing cuff.
The rotating body.
The jacket bulging outwards.
The double shoulder lift.
The explosive movements.
The unnatural wrist angle.
Everything points to this being the moment JBC is shot through. In turn this points to the exact moment JFK is also shot through.
The time has come to finally accept the evidence