Josiah Thompson - Who Was the Umbrella Man?

[Della Cross]

"Brugioni never expresses any kind of view about whether or not the film was altered and Horne doesn't ask him a single question about it."

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.  Brugioni, a WW II combat pilot (60 missions) was a photo analyst at the NPIC lab in Washington. The interview is mainly about Brugioni's memory of seeing the original 8 mm. Z film at the NPIC lab on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. The Z film was brought to the lab by two Secret Service agents, who had not yet seen it themselves.  They wanted Brugioni to prepare displays of still photos taken from the film to be used for intelligence briefing. As Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head. Brugioni prepared the two displays as requested, with 12-15 still pix on each one.  In the early a.m. the two agents left the NPIC lab with the displays, and the original Z film.  The next time Brugioni saw the film, years later, it was clearly different. The frames showing the piece of JFK's skull flying into the air had been removed; so had the frames of the motorcade turning onto Elm Street; the impact of the head shot had been shortened to frame 313, whereas in the original Z film seen by Brugioni that impact scene was several frames longer;  the limo now slows, but does not stop;  the president is now thrown backward by the shot; and the gaping wound at the right rear of JFK's head had been blacked out. This is the Z film we see today.  According to Dino Brugioni, key scenes in today's film are different from the original Z film, which he saw at the NPIC lab on Nov. 23rd, 1963.   
 

[Michael Welch]

"Brugioni never expresses any kind of view about whether or not the film was altered and Horne doesn't ask him a single question about it."

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.  Brugioni, a WW II combat pilot (60 missions) was a photo analyst at the NPIC lab in Washington. The interview is mainly about Brugioni's memory of seeing the original 8 mm. Z film at the NPIC lab on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. The Z film was brought to the lab by two Secret Service agents, who had not yet seen it themselves.  They wanted Brugioni to prepare displays of still photos taken from the film to be used for intelligence briefing. As Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head. Brugioni prepared the two displays as requested, with 12-15 still pix on each one.  In the early a.m. the two agents left the NPIC lab with the displays, and the original Z film.  The next time Brugioni saw the film, years later, it was clearly different. The frames showing the piece of JFK's skull flying into the air had been removed; so had the frames of the motorcade turning onto Elm Street; the impact of the head shot had been shortened to frame 313, whereas in the original Z film seen by Brugioni that impact scene was several frames longer;  the limo now slows, but does not stop;  the president is now thrown backward by the shot; and the gaping wound at the right rear of JFK's head had been blacked out. This is the Z film we see today.  According to Dino Brugioni, key scenes in today's film are different from the original Z film, which he saw at the NPIC lab on Nov. 23rd, 1963.   

Hi Della, Welcome to the forum! Thank you for schooling us on this! Sincerely yours, Michael

[Dan O'meara]

"Brugioni never expresses any kind of view about whether or not the film was altered and Horne doesn't ask him a single question about it."

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.  Brugioni, a WW II combat pilot (60 missions) was a photo analyst at the NPIC lab in Washington. The interview is mainly about Brugioni's memory of seeing the original 8 mm. Z film at the NPIC lab on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. The Z film was brought to the lab by two Secret Service agents, who had not yet seen it themselves.  They wanted Brugioni to prepare displays of still photos taken from the film to be used for intelligence briefing. As Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head. Brugioni prepared the two displays as requested, with 12-15 still pix on each one.  In the early a.m. the two agents left the NPIC lab with the displays, and the original Z film.  The next time Brugioni saw the film, years later, it was clearly different. The frames showing the piece of JFK's skull flying into the air had been removed; so had the frames of the motorcade turning onto Elm Street; the impact of the head shot had been shortened to frame 313, whereas in the original Z film seen by Brugioni that impact scene was several frames longer;  the limo now slows, but does not stop;  the president is now thrown backward by the shot; and the gaping wound at the right rear of JFK's head had been blacked out. This is the Z film we see today.  According to Dino Brugioni, key scenes in today's film are different from the original Z film, which he saw at the NPIC lab on Nov. 23rd, 1963.   

The interview with Dino Brugioni on Youtube, "The Zapruder Film Mystery," is not about Brugioni discussing whether or not the Z film was altered.

That's the point I'm making.
"The Zapruder Film Mystery" is as much about Doug Horne as it is about Bruglioni. Horne is an out-and-out Alteration Fantasist [Altfan]. The whole point of his research is to demonstrate that the Z-film has been altered. He introduces his interview with Dino in this context, stating it is his belief the Z-film was altered by removing the limo stop, blacking out the back of JFK's head and removing frames to show debris being blasted out of the back of JFK's head, and painting on the head wound visible in the Z-film.
This last point, that the head wound was painted on, is so ridiculous it makes me feel embarrassed for Horne. It's possibly the most ludicrous claim ever made in JFK research.
The whole point of Horne's interview with Dino is to provide evidence to support his silly belief of alteration.
Horne doesn't ask him a single question about whether the Z-film was altered.
Why not? Horne has an opportunity to grill a guy who closely studied the original Z-film many times.
I find it inconceivable that Horne did not ask Dino whether there was a limo stop or whether or not Dino saw debris blown out of the back of JFK's head. Of course he asked him.
But Dino must have told Horne that there was no limo stop and there was no debris. And that's why Horne doesn't ask him about it during the interview.
If Dino had said he saw a limo stop or debris we would never hear the end of it, Horne wouldn't give a toss about the briefing boards, all he would want to hear about are the things that prove the Z-film was altered.
But, during the interview, Dino never mentions a thing that supports the fantasy that the Z-film was altered.
So Horne does something incredibly underhand.
During the interview he inserts a completely different interview with Dino and Peter Janney. The point of this interview is to fool the suckers that Dino had watched the "altered" Z-film and was saying it was different from the original he saw.
But that's not what happens.
Dino is shown a single frame, 313, and told that this is the only frame that shows the head explosion.
Dino doesn't believe it, he says there must be more frames than this showing the "mist" coming from JFK's head.
And, of course, he is right:



Janney lied to him about 313 being the only frame that showed the head explosion and Dino couldn't believe it. Horne gleefully jumps on this as 'proof' Dino saw something different but it's all a big con that the gullible just suck up without questioning.

There is not a single thing in "The Zapruder Film Mystery" that supports alteration of the Z-film. Dino made some briefing boards on Saturday night and was unaware that another team made some briefing boards on Sunday night. So what?
Really - so what?
It has nothing to do with film alteration.
All it means is that anyone who wanted to alter the film wasted 24 hours by giving it to Dino to make briefing boards that no-one would ever see. Why don't Altfans think about things like this?


"...Brugioni and the agents watched the original film, they were shocked by the sight of the head shot impact causing a fragment of JFK's skull to fly "three or four feet into the air," surrounded by a kind of bloody mist. Also noted by Brugioni;  the original Z film showed the motorcade turning the corner onto Elm Street; the presidential limo coming to a brief but complete, stop; JFK being thrown forward by the impact; and a gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head"

Dino never saw fragments of JFK's skull fly "three or four feet into the air".
Dino never saw the motorcade turn onto Elm Street.
Dino never saw the limo come to a stop.
Dino never saw JFK being thrown forward.
Dino never saw a "gaping wound at the right rear of the president's head".

Can you explain why you have attributed to Dino all these things that he never said?
I would be really interested to know how the mind of an Altfan works.
Is it that you don't have a clue about this subject and are just making things up?
Is it that you are deliberately presenting "fake news"?
What is it?

[Della Cross]

In the Youtube video "The Zapruder Film Mystery," NPIC photo analyst Dino Brugioni is interviewed by Doug Horne.  Brugioni states clearly that he saw the the fully developed 8 mm. Z film on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, when it was brought to the NPIC lab in Washington DC by two Secret Service agents, who had just come from the airport. The wanted Brugioni to make briefing boards from pix taken from the film. The lab did not have an 8 mm. projector, but one was found. Brugioni says the first time he and the agents saw the Z film "it caught us all by surprise... (The surprise) was to see portions of Kennedy's head fly into the air." There was no doubt in Brugioni's mind that he was watching the original Z film. He states that never again after that night did he see the Z film look the way it did in the lab. Later in the interview, he discusses the head wound again, and says he saw a piece of JFK's skull "three or four feet from his head."  Question:  "Up in the air?"  Brugioni:   "Yes."   Still later, Brugioni says, "Once I saw that part of the head go into the air, I knew this was sensitive material." That head shot scene with the piece of skull flying into the air is not on the Z film we see today. At the end of the interview, Horne states that if one aspect of the original Z film has been altered, then the whole film is suspect. I agree with that.   

   

[Royell Storing]

In the Youtube video "The Zapruder Film Mystery," NPIC photo analyst Dino Brugioni is interviewed by Doug Horne.  Brugioni states clearly that he saw the the fully developed 8 mm. Z film on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, when it was brought to the NPIC lab in Washington DC by two Secret Service agents, who had just come from the airport. The wanted Brugioni to make briefing boards from pix taken from the film. The lab did not have an 8 mm. projector, but one was found. Brugioni says the first time he and the agents saw the Z film "it caught us all by surprise... (The surprise) was to see portions of Kennedy's head fly into the air." There was no doubt in Brugioni's mind that he was watching the original Z film. He states that never again after that night did he see the Z film look the way it did in the lab. Later in the interview, he discusses the head wound again, and says he saw a piece of JFK's skull "three or four feet from his head."  Question:  "Up in the air?"  Brugioni:   "Yes."   Still later, Brugioni says, "Once I saw that part of the head go into the air, I knew this was sensitive material." That head shot scene with the piece of skull flying into the air is not on the Z film we see today. At the end of the interview, Horne states that if one aspect of the original Z film has been altered, then the whole film is suspect. I agree with that.   

   

       DELLA - With respect to your agreeing with Doug Horne's, "if one aspect of the original Z film has been altered, then the whole film is suspect", I would expand this philosophy to include Warren Commission and HSCA Testimony. The HSCA SEALED the sworn Testimony of JFK White House Photographer Robert L. Knudsen. Knudsen's HSCA testimony detailed his having seen JFK Autopsy Photo(s) showing PROBES in the body of JFK that were running from Front-to-Back. Knudsen was in charge of the developing of the JFK Autopsy Photos the morning following the autopsy. He was highly respected in the White House dating back to Eisenhower, and held a high security clearance. The ARRB in late 1990 discovered that Knudsen's HSCA testimony had been sealed for roughly 20 years and therefore was completely unknown to the public. The ARRB got Knudsen's "probe(s)" testimony unsealed, and added it to the public record. Point is, if the powers that be can completely seal the testimony of a highly respected individual such as Knudsen, who knows what other highly credible sources have also had their JFK Assassination testimony expunged from the public record?     

[Dan O'meara]

Just to rectify some of the lies being spread on this thread.
Nowhere does Dino say that pieces of JFK's skull were blown 3 to 4 ft into the air. He is talking about the spray or mist of blood that surrounds JFK's head as a result of the head shot. So, when Della posts -

"The frames showing the piece of JFK's skull flying into the air had been removed"

- it is incredibly misleading. Dino never says that frames showing pieces of skull have been removed. He never even hints at it. But this is the kind of misrepresentation/falsehood, that takes hold when enough Altfans get together.
The clip from the Z-film I posted clearly shows this cloud of mist but we must remember that Dino was watching the pristine original. He watched it many times in slow-motion and real time and studied individual frames. He saw much greater detail than the copies we see today and could see this cloud of mist more clearly. It must also be noted that the clip I posted shows pieces of skull being blown about 20ft into the air.
The biggest lie [and there are many] in "The Zapruder Film Mystery" comes about 34 minutes in when Dino is showed a single frame, 313 and told that this is only frame of the Z-film that shows the head explosion. This is the kind of outright lie that Alteration Fantasists have no problem spreading. It is incredibly devious.
The whole film is incredibly devious and Horne's manipulation of Dino, who is a genuine person, is disgusting.
But this is all in a day's work for Altfans.

In my previous post I pointed out a series of incorrect statements made by Della.
There has been zero acknowledgement that these were, indeed, false statements. It's the usual tactic of spreading falsehoods and just silently moving on when these are pointed out only to re-emerge at a later date spreading exactly the same falsehoods.

But let's remember this truth about the film...
Horne is the ultimate Altfan.
All his research is geared to demonstrating that the Z-film has been altered.
He believes the limo stop has been deleted, that debris flew out of the back of JFK's head and this has been deleted, that the back of JFK's head has been blacked out and that the head wound has been painted in [ , I shouldn't laugh but this last 'belief' is too much].
He has sat in front of him a man who intensely studied the original Z-film.
Does he ask this man about the limo stop?
Does he ask this man about debris being blown out of the back of JFK's head?
Does he ask about the injuries apparent on JFK's head?
Does he ask him if he believes the Z-film was altered?

NO - NO, HE DOESN'T ASK HIM A SINGLE THING ABOUT ALTERATION.

It's all a massive con and a lie,
Dino never says a single thing that supports alteration. NEVER.
Horne's disgusting manipulation of what Dino actually says is stomach churning.
But it's all in a days work for Altfans.

One last point, because I am genuinely interested in the state of mind of an Altfan.
Hornes' belief is that the Z-film is altered to hide evidence that there is another shooter.
Yet, the single factor about the Z-film that stands head and shoulders above everything else is the "back and to the left" motion.
If anything demonstrates there is a shooter from the front it's the "back and to the left" motion.
I believe this sole factor is the single most influential piece of evidence when it comes to believing in conspiracy.

So, here's the question - what's the point of altering anything in the film to hide evidence of another shooter when the "back and to the left" motion remains in the film?
I'm genuinely interested in seeing what mental gymnastics are going to be utilised answering this question.

[Royell Storing]

                                                                        Just a couple of quick observations:

     (1) You got serious issue(s) with Horne. This makes you incapable of objectively examining ANYTHING that Horne is connected to.

     (2) We really do Not know if Dino was examining the ORIGINAL out-of-the-camera Zapruder Film on 11/23/63.

     (3) We really do Not know if We are currently looking at the ORIGINAL out-of-the-camera Zapruder Film.