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Author Topic: Time for Truth  (Read 34482 times)

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #232 on: September 04, 2023, 01:52:10 PM »
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In contrarian land, you can see a man walking toward you, and then disappear behind you and not be able to claim he went into the theatre when that is the only place he could have gone.  HA HA HA.   Was Oswald beamed up to the Starship Enterprise or become the Invisible Man in that moment?   The contrarian doesn't know or care.  They are desperately grasping at pedantic straws to sow false doubt even when it makes no sense.   Why?  Because we know beyond any doubt that Oswald WAS in the theatre because that is where he was arrested a few minutes later!  That means he HAD to enter the theatre.  And when was the best time for him to have done so without Postal selling him a ticket?  When she was standing out on the sidewalk.  The contrarians undermine their own "logic."  But the contrarians still dispute that he entered the theatre?  Wow.

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #232 on: September 04, 2023, 01:52:10 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #233 on: September 04, 2023, 05:08:44 PM »
In contrarian land, you can see a man walking toward you, and then disappear behind you and not be able to claim he went into the theatre when that is the only place he could have gone.  HA HA HA.   Was Oswald beamed up to the Starship Enterprise or become the Invisible Man in that moment?   The contrarian doesn't know or care.  They are desperately grasping at pedantic straws to sow false doubt even when it makes no sense.   Why?  Because we know beyond any doubt that Oswald WAS in the theatre because that is where he was arrested a few minutes later!  That means he HAD to enter the theatre.  And when was the best time for him to have done so without Postal selling him a ticket?  When she was standing out on the sidewalk.  The contrarians undermine their own "logic."  But the contrarians still dispute that he entered the theatre?  Wow.

not be able to claim he went into the theatre when that is the only place he could have gone.  HA HA HA.

The only place he could have gone? Really.... So, continue walking down the sidewalk wasn't an option? HA HA HA HA HA

when it makes no sense.   Why?  Because we know beyond any doubt that Oswald WAS in the theatre because that is where he was arrested a few minutes later!

The only thing that doesn't make sense is you (as per usual) making an assumption.... in this case; that Oswald (who was indeed in the theatre) was the man Brewer saw.

But the contrarians still dispute that he entered the theatre?

Who.. Oswald or the guy Brewer saw?

As he was there when DPD found him, Oswald clearly must have entered the theatre. The question to be answered is; when did he enter? Since nobody saw him actually going in, all  you have is your usual circular conjecture. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 08:12:39 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #234 on: September 04, 2023, 09:54:37 PM »
EXHIBIT A!

Mr. BREWER - [...] And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you see?
Mr. BREWER - Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering.


EXHIBIT B!

11/22/63 affidavit:



If Mr. Brewer had pointed THE man out, the officer would have gone straight to THAT man. But the officer didn't do that-----------he first tried his luck with two other men. And THEN he came to Mr. Oswald, whose reaction told him he had struck gold.

Ergo, Mr. Brewer didn't point Mr. Oswald out. He hadn't a clue which man was the man they were after.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 09:57:07 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #234 on: September 04, 2023, 09:54:37 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #235 on: September 04, 2023, 10:49:47 PM »
Five issues:

- Brewer didn’t see anybody enter the cinema. The doors weren’t visible from his position.
- Postal didn’t see anybody enter the cinema. She was out on the sidewalk looking west on Jefferson.
- Brewer didn’t immediately go talk to Postal. He went back into his store and talked to the IBM men first.
- Postal told both Brewer and the FBI that she wasn’t sure if she sold the man a ticket or not.
- Just because Brewer thought the man he saw was Oswald, doesn’t mean that the man he saw was Oswald, anymore than the man that Burroughs saw or the man that Jack Davis saw.

 ::)

Brewer testifies that he sees this guy acting suspiciously at the front of his shop while police sirens are blaring outside. As the sirens pass the guy moves on:

"He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched him, and he went into the theatre."

The suspicious looking guy enters the Texas Theatre. Does Brewer need to see this guy actually enter the door to know he has entered the building? Brewer watches the man turn into the building and knows he has entered the theatre:

Mr. Brewer: No; he just turned and walked right straight in.
Mr. Belin: When he walked right straight in, could you see the box office?
Mr. Brewer: Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all the other buildings.
Mr. Belin: If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking?
Mr. Brewer: I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box office.


"...he just turned and walked right straight in...he turned right at the corner and went in."

The doors of the cinema are recessed from the front of the building. Brewer does not see Oswald pass through the doors but he does see him walk into the large recessed area at the entrance of the cinema.
Even though Postal doesn't see Oswald enter the theatre, she does provide us with the information that Oswald never passed her position as she was looking west, up Jefferson. Postal was stood on the sidewalk just in front of the Box Office, checking out the police cars blaring by. She actually sees Oswald approaching from the east but then she turns to look west and doesn't see him ducking into the theatre:

Mr. Ball: The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?
Mrs. Postal: No, sir; he was still just in----just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.


She has no idea Oswald has gone into the theatre, she turns around to find Brewer there asking about the suspicious guy who ducked into the theatre.
Brewer sees the man turn into the building and Postal confirms the man she saw approaching her never passed by her position at the front of the Box Office. Brewer and Postal confirm each others account of talking about whether the man who had entered the theatre had paid for his ticket:

Postal - I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought .the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.

Brewer - I walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't.

It is agreed that Brewer will go inside to see if he can find the man who ducked inside:

Brewer - I said that a man walked in there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen him.

Postal - I said, "Go in and see if you can see him,"


It is agreed to get Butch Burroughs involved:

Mr. Brewer: ... So I walked in and Butch Burroughs.----
Mr. Belin: Who was Burroughs?
Mr. Brewer: ...he operated the concession ... I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits were and we would check the exits.

Postal - I told Johnny this, don't tell him [Burroughs], because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good


Butch never saw the man who ducked in without paying:

Brewer - He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and hadn't seen anybody.

Burroughs - ...I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Brewer's account of following Oswald into the Texas Theater is confirmed by both Postal and Burroughs as are other details. Brewer checks the back exit which is locked (this can only be done from the inside) so he knows no-one has left through that exit. He and Burroughs go back through the cinema but can't see the man they are looking for and return to Postal at the front who decides to call the police:

Brewer - When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him. But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him ... and she called the police, and we went----Butch went to the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood there until the police came.

Postal - I told Johnny [Brewer] this ... just have him [Burroughs], you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."

Other aspects of Brewer's account are confirmed by various officers. Brewer has taken up a position guarding the back exit:

Brewer - I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there.
And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him out.
And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.


Officer Hutson - We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors, Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting.
I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get in. I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for."

Officer Walker - I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived there, there was several officers there ... around the back of the theatre, and myself, and/McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now.

Brewer's account of what happened seems completely credible and is corroborated by multiple witnesses and there is no doubt in Brewer's mind that the man he saw outside his shop and who ducked into the Texas Theater was the man he pointed out to police and who was subsequently arrested in the cinema - Lee Harvey Oswald.




Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #236 on: September 04, 2023, 11:00:00 PM »
EXHIBIT A!

Mr. BREWER - [...] And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you see?
Mr. BREWER - Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering.


EXHIBIT B!

11/22/63 affidavit:



If Mr. Brewer had pointed THE man out, the officer would have gone straight to THAT man. But the officer didn't do that-----------he first tried his luck with two other men. And THEN he came to Mr. Oswald, whose reaction told him he had struck gold.

Ergo, Mr. Brewer didn't point Mr. Oswald out. He hadn't a clue which man was the man they were after.

You're assuming the officer described in the affidavit was the one Brewer pointed Oswald out to.
Multiple officers entered the back exit at the same time. Hutson describes pulling a gun on Brewer and searching him but nothing about Brewer pointing Oswald out, he just got on with searching the cinema.

LATER EDIT:
This from McDonald's testimony [this is the officer Applin was describing in his affidavit]:

Mr. Mcdonald: Well, when I got to the front of the theater there was several police cars already at the scene, and I surmised that officers were already inside the theater.
So I decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. I parked my squad car. I noticed there were three or four other officers standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. There were three other officers at the rear door. I joined them. We walked into the rear exit door over the alley.
Mr. Ball: What were their names?
Mr. Mcdonald: Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker. And as we got inside the door, we were met by a man that was in civilian clothes, a suit, and he told us that the man that acted suspiciously as he ran into the theater was sitting downstairs in the orchestra seats, and not in the balcony. He was sitting at the rear of the theater alone.
Officer Walker and I went to the exit curtains that is to the left of the movie screen. I looked into the audience. I saw the person that the shoe store salesman had pointed out to us.
Mr. Ball: Were the lights on or off?
Mr. Mcdonald: The lights were up, and the movie was playing at this time.
Mr. Ball: And could you see to the rear of the theater?
Mr. Mcdonald: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: You could see the man. Did the civilian point out to you the man in one of the rear seats?
Mr. Mcdonald: He didn't point out personally. He was pointing out the suspect to another officer with him on the right of the stage, just right of the movie screen.
Mr. Ball: What did you do then?
Mr. Mcdonald: Well, after seeing him, I noticed the other people in the theater--there was approximately 10 or 15 other people seated throughout the theater. There were two men sitting in the center, about 10 rows from the front.
I walked up the left center aisle into the row behind these two men, and Officer C. T. Walker was behind me. When I got to these two men, I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a weapon.
I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me.
Mr. Ball: Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater?
Mr. McDONALD, I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything.
Mr. Ball: And you still kept your eye on the suspect?
Mr. Mcdonald: Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my shoulder at him.
Mr, BALL. Was he sitting nearest the right or the left aisle as you came in?
Mr. Mcdonald: The right center aisle. He was in the second seat.
Mr. Ball: What did you do then?
Mr. Mcdonald: After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right center aisle toward the suspect...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 11:32:28 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #236 on: September 04, 2023, 11:00:00 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #237 on: September 05, 2023, 12:49:08 AM »

Mr. Brewer: Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all the other buildings.

Nonsense.

The view from outside Hardy's Shoe Store:



The box office is not "flush with all the other buildings":


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #238 on: September 05, 2023, 12:52:54 AM »

Mr. Mcdonald: Well, after seeing him, I noticed the other people in the theater--there was approximately 10 or 15 other people seated throughout the theater. There were two men sitting in the center, about 10 rows from the front.
I walked up the left center aisle into the row behind these two men, and Officer C. T. Walker was behind me. When I got to these two men, I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a weapon.
I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me.
Mr. Ball: Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater?
Mr. McDONALD, I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything.
Mr. Ball: And you still kept your eye on the suspect?
Mr. Mcdonald: Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my shoulder at him.
Mr, BALL. Was he sitting nearest the right or the left aisle as you came in?
Mr. Mcdonald: The right center aisle. He was in the second seat.
Mr. Ball: What did you do then?
Mr. Mcdonald: After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right center aisle toward the suspect...


Lol, a feeble post hoc justification from Officer McDonald for the witnessed fact that he didn't know which man to approach.

Mr. Brewer, in his testimony, makes no mention of this shaking down of the two men. Instead he gives the impression of the simple sequence:
1. I pointed out the man
2. The officer approached that man.
Why does Mr. Brewer give this false impression? Because he never pointed out any man.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 01:01:58 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #238 on: September 05, 2023, 12:52:54 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Time for Truth
« Reply #239 on: September 05, 2023, 01:26:17 AM »
Brewer - I walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't.

Again, what Mr. Brewer is leaving out is the fact that, BEFORE walking up to the cinema and speaking with Ms. Postal, he returned to his shoe store and spoke with his two IBM pals in there-----------------the same two guys with whom he had shortly before this heard, on a transistor radio, the non-existent radio broadcast of the Tippit killer.

And here's the most important point: If Mr. Brewer's grimly determined pursuit of 'Oswald' seems too good to be true, that's as nothing compared to the Dallas police's amazing intuition that this fellow's half-suspicion justifies the descent by a squadron of cops on the Texas Theatre in response to the radio dispatch "Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater . . . Supposed to be hiding in the balcony".