JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
LNers Can't Explain the Two Back-of-Head Bullet Fragments
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 06, 2023, 02:46:34 PM ---I think that u have confused the fragments. No fragments were taken from the galea. The galea had small lead splatter only.
Re the Oswald etc timings, my description is perfect, & works.
I threw in the movements of Hines too, she entered the door to her office a couple of seconds before Oswald approached the lunchroom.
Oswald did not have a coke in his hand, he got the coke after Baker left.
Dougherty might have been somewhere on the 5th floor when Oswald passed throo the 5th floor, but Dougherty was not necessarily near the stairs in a position to see Oswald.
We know that Dougherty was in front of the elevators 4 minutes later when the trapdoor on the roof slammed shut in the wind (Dougherty thort that it was a shot).
--- End quote ---
You are totally confused--or are deflecting. I did not say that any fragments were removed from the galea, and the galea fragment--the McDonnel fragment--was not just "small lead splatter." You still have not read my first few posts in this thread, have you? What about the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment in the outer table? I notice you ignored it--again. You don't seem to understand, or are simply refusing to acknowledge, the back-of-head fragments that must be explained.
Do you have any idea how painful it would be to have even a "small lead splatter," much less the McDonnel fragment, hit your head hard enough to go through your scalp, through your outer table, and into your galea? Take the thinnest needle you can find and try pushing it into your head hard enough to penetrate through your scalp and outer table and into your galea--I guarantee you that it will hurt, that it will cause a painful sting.
Or, try taking a somewhat wider needle and push it into your head hard enough to go through your scalp and into your outer table. I promise you that it will cause an even more painful jab.
So enough with this nonsense that after JFK had a fragment penetrate into his galea and another fragment penetrate into his outer table, he did not react and even kept on smiling and waving. This is an unserious, absurd idea.
Oswald bought the coke before Baker saw him. Read the articles I cited.
Your explanation of Oswald's movements and timing does not even remotely work. It is loaded with specious, forced assumptions that you are compelled to make in order to try to get Oswald into the second-floor lunchroom without being seen or heard on the stairs and without being seen on the second-floor landing by Truly. Again, read the articles I cited.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on December 06, 2023, 03:54:28 PM ---You are totally confused--or are deflecting. I did not say that any fragments were removed from the galea, and the galea fragment--the McDonnel fragment--was not just "small lead splatter." You still have not read my first few posts in this thread, have you? What about the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment in the outer table? I notice you ignored it--again. You don't seem to understand, or are simply refusing to acknowledge, the back-of-head fragments that must be explained.
Do you have any idea how painful it would be to have even a "small lead splatter," much less the McDonnel fragment, hit your head hard enough to go through your scalp, through your outer table, and into your galea? Take the thinnest needle you can find and try pushing it into your head hard enough to penetrate through your scalp and outer table and into your galea--I guarantee you that it will hurt, that it will cause a painful sting.
Or, try taking a somewhat wider needle and push it into your head hard enough to go through your scalp and into your outer table. I promise you that it will cause an even more painful jab.
So enough with this nonsense that after JFK had a fragment penetrate into his galea and another fragment penetrate into his outer table, he did not react and even kept on smiling and waving. This is an unserious, absurd idea.
Oswald bought the coke before Baker saw him. Read the articles I cited.
Your explanation of Oswald's movements and timing does not even remotely work. It is loaded with specious, forced assumptions that you are compelled to make in order to try to get Oswald into the second-floor lunchroom without being seen or heard on the stairs and without being seen on the second-floor landing by Truly. Again, read the articles I cited.
--- End quote ---
I think that the reports said that there were a number of small fragments on the back of JFK's head (xray) outside the skull.
Even if u are correct that one of these was 6.5 by 2.5 then i dont see why this/these had to be very painful.
A blunt bang on the head can be very painful (with much swelling & bruising). But a sharp bang aint necessarily very painful.
And i dont see why these fragments could not have come from Oswald's shot-1 ricochet off the signal arm (guy rod).
The brass FMJ fragments into 2 halves.
The remnant lead slug is usually in one piece.
Except that there is always some lead splatter (& praps some brass splatter).
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 07, 2023, 12:19:05 AM ---I think that the reports said that there were a number of small fragments on the back of JFK's head (xray) outside the skull.
--- End quote ---
Sigh. . . . The 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment was not "outside the skull." It was embedded in the outer table, which means it tore through all four of the layers that constitute the scalp, two of which are tough and dense. You *still* have not read my first few posts on the back-of-head fragments, apparently.
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 07, 2023, 12:19:05 AM ---Even if u are correct that one of these was 6.5 by 2.5 then i dont see why this/these had to be very painful.
A blunt bang on the head can be very painful (with much swelling & bruising). But a sharp bang aint necessarily very painful.
And i dont see why these fragments could not have come from Oswald's shot-1 ricochet off the signal arm (guy rod).
The brass FMJ fragments into 2 halves.
The remnant lead slug is usually in one piece.
Except that there is always some lead splatter (& praps some brass splatter).
--- End quote ---
Having a 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment hit you hard enough to tear through all the layers of your scalp and embed itself into your outer table would be nothing like a "blunt bang" but a rather sharp and painful stab. Again, get a needle or a needle-like object and see how hard you have to push to penetrate through your scalp and into your outer table, and see how much it hurts.
In rechecking the sources on the McDonnel fragment, I see that McDonnel said the fragment was "between" the galea and the outer table. That means the fragment penetrated the skin of the scalp, went through the subcutaneous tissue beneath the skin of the scalp, and then tore through the galea and lodged in the layer between the galea and the outer table (the periostium). The galea is defined as " a sturdy layer of dense fibrous tissue." The periostium is also quite dense.
It is apparent that you are beyond persuasion regarding your silly, bizarre theory. Your theory butchers Donahue's plausible ricochet theory and morphs it into a bizarre joke that assumes that "Oswald" fired nearly straight down, that he fired when the guy rod was near his target in his field of view, that this bullet struck the guy rod, that the bullet generated a fragment that tore through three of the four layers of JFK's scalp and lodged between the galea and his outer table, that the bullet also generated another fragment that tore through JFK's galea and periostium and then embedded itself in his outer table, and that, amazingly, JFK just kept on casually smiling and waving after receiving these two painful fragment hits. This is a sad joke.
To make matters worse, your whacky ricochet theory requires us to believe that a fragment from the alleged guy-rod-collision somehow magically traveled hundreds of feet and struck the curb near Tague hard enough to send a chip of concrete streaking toward his face with enough velocity to cut it, or that this magic fragment hit Tague's face directly and that another magic fragment struck the curb near Tague and created a visible scar that everyone who saw it on 11/22 described as a bullet mark.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
Michael T. Griffith....... Sigh. . . . The 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment was not "outside the skull." It was embedded in the outer table, which means it tore through all four of the layers that constitute the scalp, two of which are tough and dense. You *still* have not read my first few posts on the back-of-head fragments, apparently.
...........OK, IT (IF IT EXISTED) WAS NOT OUTSIDE THE SKULL.
Having a 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment hit you hard enough to tear through all the layers of your scalp and embed itself into your outer table would be nothing like a "blunt bang" but a rather sharp and painful stab. Again, get a needle or a needle-like object and see how hard you have to push to penetrate through your scalp and into your outer table, and see how much it hurts.
............ SO, U AGREE WITH ME, THAT IT (IF IT EXISTED) WOULD BE NOTHING LIKE A PAINFUL BLUNT BANG.
............ IT DID NOT HURT MUCH, KOZ WE KNOW THAT JFK DID NOT REACT MUCH. A QUICK STAB OF 1.5 MM OF SCALP WOULD GIVE VERY LITTLE PAIN. PENETRATION OF THE OUTER TABLE OF SKULL PROBLY GIVES VERY LITTLE PAIN. PAIN IN BONES IS PROBLY MORE OF A LONG TERM THING, AN ACHE, TO TELL U THAT ALL IS NOT WELL. ALL OF WHICH CAN BE IGNORED IF THE LARGE FRAGMENT DID NOT EXIST.
............ PUSHING A NEEDLE INTO THE SCALP & OUTER TABLE WOULD BE DIFFERENT TO THE NEEDLE IMPACTING & PENETRATING THE SAY 5MM OF SCALP & BONE IN SAY 0.00003 SEC. TRY IT & SEE HOW MUCH IT HURTS.
In rechecking the sources on the McDonnel fragment, I see that McDonnel said the fragment was "between" the galea and the outer table. That means the fragment penetrated the skin of the scalp, went through the subcutaneous tissue beneath the skin of the scalp, and then tore through the galea and lodged in the layer between the galea and the outer table (the periostium). The galea is defined as " a sturdy layer of dense fibrous tissue." The periostium is also quite dense.
.................. I THINK THIS REFERS TO THE 1 BY 1 FRAGMENT. BUT I THORT THAT THERE WERE A LARGE NUMBER OF FRAGMENTS ON THE TOP BACK RIGHT OF THE HEAD, IN XRAY.
It is apparent that you are beyond persuasion regarding your silly, bizarre theory. Your theory butchers Donahue's plausible ricochet theory and morphs it into a bizarre joke that assumes that "Oswald" fired nearly straight down, that he fired when the guy rod was near his target in his field of view, that this bullet struck the guy rod, that the bullet generated a fragment that tore through three of the four layers of JFK's scalp and lodged between the galea and his outer table, that the bullet also generated another fragment that tore through JFK's galea and periostium and then embedded itself in his outer table, and that, amazingly, JFK just kept on casually smiling and waving after receiving these two painful fragment hits. This is a sad joke.
............... DONAHUE'S RICOCHET THEORY IS THAT SHOT-1 HIT THE TARMAC, & FRAGMENTS OF SLUG HIT JFK & EMBEDDED IN TOP BACK RIGHT OF HEAD, & 2 HALF JACKETS LANDED IN THE LIMO. SILLY.
............... HOLLAND'S RICOCHET THEORY WAS THAT OSWALD'S SHOT-1 RICOCHETED & EVENTUALLY CAUSED TAGUE'S WOUND. SILLY.
............... MY RICOCHET THEORY IS THAT OSWALD'S SHOT-1 HIT A GUY ROD, & LEAD SPLATTER HIT JFK IN TOP BACK RIGHT OF HEAD (XRAY). IF YOUR 6.5 BY 2.5 FRAGMENT EXISTED THEN FOR SURE U CAN ADD THAT TO THE SPLATTER.
................ AND MY THEORY SAYS THAT THE 2 HALF JACKETS LANDED IN THE LIMO. AND THAT THE REMNANT SLUG MADE A HOLE IN THE FLOOR PAN (PHOTO).
................ JFK DID NO KEEP WAVING & SMILING. HE EXCLAIMED MY GOD I AM HIT (KELLERMAN). AND HE FELT & WIPED HIS HEAD (WITNESSES). AND REALIZING THAT HE WAS STILL BREATHING, & THAT NO-ONE ELSE SEEMED TO BE PANICKING, HE MUST HAVE CONCLUDED THAT IT HAD BEEN A FIREWORK CRACKER. HAD HE DUCKED DOWN THEN ALL MIGHT HAVE ENDED OK. BUT HE WAS DOOMED. PAINFUL YES. BUT LESS PAINFUL THAN U THINK.
................ OSWALD'S SHOT-1 WAS AT 34.8 DEG, NOT STRAIGHT DOWN.
To make matters worse, your whacky ricochet theory requires us to believe that a fragment from the alleged guy-rod-collision somehow magically traveled hundreds of feet and struck the curb near Tague hard enough to send a chip of concrete streaking toward his face with enough velocity to cut it, or that this magic fragment hit Tague's face directly and that another magic fragment struck the curb near Tague and created a visible scar that everyone who saw it on 11/22 described as a bullet mark.
.................... SHOT-1 OF HICKEY'S AUTO BURST RICOCHETED OFFA THE TARMAC & CURB, & CAUSED TAGUE'S WOUND.
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 07, 2023, 10:24:07 PM ---Michael T. Griffith....... Sigh. . . . The 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment was not "outside the skull." It was embedded in the outer table, which means it tore through all four of the layers that constitute the scalp, two of which are tough and dense. You *still* have not read my first few posts on the back-of-head fragments, apparently.
...........OK, IT (IF IT EXISTED) WAS NOT OUTSIDE THE SKULL.
Having a 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment hit you hard enough to tear through all the layers of your scalp and embed itself into your outer table would be nothing like a "blunt bang" but a rather sharp and painful stab. Again, get a needle or a needle-like object and see how hard you have to push to penetrate through your scalp and into your outer table, and see how much it hurts.
............ SO, U AGREE WITH ME, THAT IT (IF IT EXISTED) WOULD BE NOTHING LIKE A PAINFUL BLUNT BANG.
............ IT DID NOT HURT MUCH, KOZ WE KNOW THAT JFK DID NOT REACT MUCH. A QUICK STAB OF 1.5 MM OF SCALP WOULD GIVE VERY LITTLE PAIN. PENETRATION OF THE OUTER TABLE OF SKULL PROBLY GIVES VERY LITTLE PAIN. PAIN IN BONES IS PROBLY MORE OF A LONG TERM THING, AN ACHE, TO TELL U THAT ALL IS NOT WELL. ALL OF WHICH CAN BE IGNORED IF THE LARGE FRAGMENT DID NOT EXIST.
............ PUSHING A NEEDLE INTO THE SCALP & OUTER TABLE WOULD BE DIFFERENT TO THE NEEDLE IMPACTING & PENETRATING THE SAY 5MM OF SCALP & BONE IN SAY 0.00003 SEC. TRY IT & SEE HOW MUCH IT HURTS.
In rechecking the sources on the McDonnel fragment, I see that McDonnel said the fragment was "between" the galea and the outer table. That means the fragment penetrated the skin of the scalp, went through the subcutaneous tissue beneath the skin of the scalp, and then tore through the galea and lodged in the layer between the galea and the outer table (the periostium). The galea is defined as " a sturdy layer of dense fibrous tissue." The periostium is also quite dense.
.................. I THINK THIS REFERS TO THE 1 BY 1 FRAGMENT. BUT I THORT THAT THERE WERE A LARGE NUMBER OF FRAGMENTS ON THE TOP BACK RIGHT OF THE HEAD, IN XRAY.
It is apparent that you are beyond persuasion regarding your silly, bizarre theory. Your theory butchers Donahue's plausible ricochet theory and morphs it into a bizarre joke that assumes that "Oswald" fired nearly straight down, that he fired when the guy rod was near his target in his field of view, that this bullet struck the guy rod, that the bullet generated a fragment that tore through three of the four layers of JFK's scalp and lodged between the galea and his outer table, that the bullet also generated another fragment that tore through JFK's galea and periostium and then embedded itself in his outer table, and that, amazingly, JFK just kept on casually smiling and waving after receiving these two painful fragment hits. This is a sad joke.
............... DONAHUE'S RICOCHET THEORY IS THAT SHOT-1 HIT THE TARMAC, & FRAGMENTS OF SLUG HIT JFK & EMBEDDED IN TOP BACK RIGHT OF HEAD, & 2 HALF JACKETS LANDED IN THE LIMO. SILLY.
............... HOLLAND'S RICOCHET THEORY WAS THAT OSWALD'S SHOT-1 RICOCHETED & EVENTUALLY CAUSED TAGUE'S WOUND. SILLY.
............... MY RICOCHET THEORY IS THAT OSWALD'S SHOT-1 HIT A GUY ROD, & LEAD SPLATTER HIT JFK IN TOP BACK RIGHT OF HEAD (XRAY). IF YOUR 6.5 BY 2.5 FRAGMENT EXISTED THEN FOR SURE U CAN ADD THAT TO THE SPLATTER.
................ AND MY THEORY SAYS THAT THE 2 HALF JACKETS LANDED IN THE LIMO. AND THAT THE REMNANT SLUG MADE A HOLE IN THE FLOOR PAN (PHOTO).
................ JFK DID NO KEEP WAVING & SMILING. HE EXCLAIMED MY GOD I AM HIT (KELLERMAN). AND HE FELT & WIPED HIS HEAD (WITNESSES). AND REALIZING THAT HE WAS STILL BREATHING, & THAT NO-ONE ELSE SEEMED TO BE PANICKING, HE MUST HAVE CONCLUDED THAT IT HAD BEEN A FIREWORK CRACKER. HAD HE DUCKED DOWN THEN ALL MIGHT HAVE ENDED OK. BUT HE WAS DOOMED. PAINFUL YES. BUT LESS PAINFUL THAN U THINK.
................ OSWALD'S SHOT-1 WAS AT 34.8 DEG, NOT STRAIGHT DOWN.
To make matters worse, your whacky ricochet theory requires us to believe that a fragment from the alleged guy-rod-collision somehow magically traveled hundreds of feet and struck the curb near Tague hard enough to send a chip of concrete streaking toward his face with enough velocity to cut it, or that this magic fragment hit Tague's face directly and that another magic fragment struck the curb near Tague and created a visible scar that everyone who saw it on 11/22 described as a bullet mark.
.................... SHOT-1 OF HICKEY'S AUTO BURST RICOCHETED OFFA THE TARMAC & CURB, & CAUSED TAGUE'S WOUND.
--- End quote ---
This is getting sillier and sillier.
"IF" the fragment existed? HUH? Can you name one expert who has ever denied the existence of the small back-of-head fragment seen on the lateral x-rays, the fragment that's at the same vertical level as the 6.5 mm object seen on the AP x-ray? Everyone from the Clark Panel to the HSCA FPP to Dr. Sturdivan to Dr. Riley to Dr. Aguilar to Dr. Mantik, etc., etc., has acknowledged the existence of this fragment, and Dr. Mantik and Dr. Chesser confirmed with multiple OD measurements that the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment is metallic.
This is the back-of-head fragment that the Clark Panel and the HSCA FPP erroneously identified as the partner image of the 6.5 mm object seen on the AP x-ray. Even Dr. Fitzpatrick and Dr. Sturdivan have admitted that back-of-head fragment seen on the lateral x-rays cannot be the partner image of the AP x-ray's 6.5 mm object because it is neither as large nor as dense as the 6.5 mm object. Nobody but nobody has ever denied this fragment's existence.
Regarding the McDonnel fragment and the other smaller back-of-head fragments, you still don't seem to understand the basics on this issue. Let me repeat, again: There is a 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment inside the 6.5 mm object--again, that's the fragment that Dr. Fitzpatrick and Dr. Sturdivan admit cannot be the partner image of the 6.5 mm object seen on the AP x-ray. There is also the McDonnel fragment, which is slightly to the left of the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment--and I should add that WC apologists have avoided dealing with this fragment as if it were the Black Death. Then, there are three very small fragments, one of which is also inside the image of the 6.5 mm object.
Since the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment and the McDonnel fragment are the two largest back-of-head fragments, and since no one disputes their existence, I have focused on them.
Regarding your comment that the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment's impact "would be nothing like a painful blunt bang," perhaps part of the problem here is your command of English. I've said repeatedly that the impact of that fragment would have caused a very painful, sharp stabbing sensation when it penetrated all the layers of the scalp and then hit the outer table hard enough to embed itself therein, which is why I've said you should test this yourself by getting a needle and seeing what if felt like to have a small metal surface penetrate into your table.
The term "blunt-force trauma" describes "a non-penetrating type of trauma" caused by "a dull object or surface." So, I don't know even know why you are raising the issue of a "painful blunt bang" when I've repeatedly described the pain as a sharp stabbing pain caused by the penetration of the fragment through the scalp and into the outer table.
Hickey fired no shot. You have zero evidence that he fired a shot. It's pure speculation. No one in his car said he fired a shot. He denied firing a shot. His ammo was checked and accounted for. When Hickey sued Donahue and his publisher, they opted to settle out of court. Hickey's shot could not have hit the EOP entry site, as Donahue himself documented very capably (which is why Donahue went with the spurious cowlick entry site, but that site was later soundly debunked and is now widely rejected even by lone-gunman theorists ala Sturdivan).
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