LNers Can't Explain the Two Back-of-Head Bullet Fragments

[Michael T. Griffith]

Draw an arrow pointing to the 7 x 2 mm fragment in the enhanced AP X-Ray. Do the same on the enhanced right lateral view.

The inability to see the 6.5 mm object in the rear of the skull in the right lateral view suggests that it's not there.

When are you going to face the fact that the 7 x 2 mm fragment and the 6.5 mm object are both visible on the AP x-ray? When?

Humes removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment. He said--and the x-rays confirm--that it was in the front part of the skull. It boggles the mind to try to fathom why Humes would not have removed the 6.5 mm object if it had been on the x-rays during the autopsy. Why would he have removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment and not also removed the most obvious apparent fragment on the AP x-ray?

And I notice you are still ignoring the OD measurements. This is hard science. We now know that the 6.5 mm object is not metallic and that it has been superimposed over the image of a small genuine fragment on the rear outer table of the skull. OD measurements confirm that the 2.5 mm fragment inside the 6.5 mm object is metallic.

Even Larry Sturdivan now admits that the 6.5 mm object is a superimposed image; he argues that it was superimposed by accident, but he has no rational theory for how this alleged accident could have occurred.

Claiming that the X-rays are altered is just loony. The X-rays have been confirmed as authentic and unaltered by the HSCA's 21 member panel of photographic analysis experts, by the radiologist responsible for the X-Rays, and by one of the techs who took them.

None of those experts had the benefit of OD analysis. None of them realized the telltale signs of alteration in the emulsion of the x-rays. None of them explained the physically impossible conflict between the AP x-ray and the lateral x-rays regarding the 6.5 mm object. None of them even detected that the 6.5 mm object is not metallic. None of them offered any explanation for the impossible white patch on the right lateral x-ray. None of them offered any explanation for the stark contradiction between the skull x-rays and the alleged autopsy photos of the brain.

The radiologist and the x-ray tech did not do any kind of an analysis of the skull x-rays. They were shown the x-rays during their interviews and simply declared, based on this brief look, that they believed the x-rays were the same ones they had taken. Yet, the radiologist refused to discuss the 6.5 mm object with Dr. Mantik and said nothing about it in his testimony. The x-ray tech did numerous interviews with Dr. Mantik and not once did he claim that he had seen the 6.5 mm object during the autopsy or that the radiologist had identified a large object as an artifact.

Why do the extant skull x-rays show no trace of the low fragment trail described in the autopsy report? The only theoretically possible--but utterly preposterous--innocent explanation for this conflict is that the autopsy doctors committed the mind-boggling blunder of mistaking the high fragment trail for a trail that was at least 2 inches lower and that started on the opposite side of the skull. Just think, just try to fathom, how even a first-year med student could make such an astonishing error, especially when they had the x-rays and the skull in front of them for over three hours.

Why did Humes say nothing about the right-frontal cloud of fragments plainly visible on the extant right lateral x-ray? He said nothing about it in the autopsy report and nothing about it in his WC testimony. He repeatedly said that the only grouping of small fragments he saw was in the form of a fragment trail that went from the EOP to the right orbit. The cloud of fragments on the extant x-rays looks nothing like this; it is in the right-frontal region, some 5 inches from the EOP on the opposite end of the skull, and the fragments next to it trail upward.

[Tim Nickerson]

When are you going to face the fact that the 7 x 2 mm fragment and the 6.5 mm object are both visible on the AP x-ray? When?

When are you going to post the enhanced AP and lateral X-Rays with your arrows pointing to the 7 x 2 mm fragment in them? When?

Humes removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment. He said--and the x-rays confirm--that it was in the front part of the skull.

Humes said that the 7 x 2 mm fragment was "somewhat behind the President's eye" and "in the brain tissue".

Mr. SPECTER - When you refer to this fragment, and you are pointing there (on CE-388), are you referring to the fragment depicted right above the President's right eye?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; above and somewhat behind the President's eye.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you proceed, then, to tell us what you did then?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We directed carefully in this region and in fact located this small fragment, which was in a defect in the brain tissue in just precisely this location.

It boggles the mind to try to fathom why Humes would not have removed the 6.5 mm object if it had been on the x-rays during the autopsy. Why would he have removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment and not also removed the most obvious apparent fragment on the AP x-ray?

Humes removed the "6.5 mm object". It was the 7 x 2 mm fragment. Humes would later view the enhanced AP X-Ray and , after some difficuity, identify that 6.5 mm object as being the 7 x 2 mm fragment.  Edward Reed and Jerrol Custer identified it without hesitation.

[Michael T. Griffith]

When are you going to post the enhanced AP and lateral X-Rays with your arrows pointing to the 7 x 2 mm fragment in them? When?

Humes said that the 7 x 2 mm fragment was "somewhat behind the President's eye" and "in the brain tissue".

Mr. SPECTER - When you refer to this fragment, and you are pointing there (on CE-388), are you referring to the fragment depicted right above the President's right eye?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; above and somewhat behind the President's eye.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you proceed, then, to tell us what you did then?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We directed carefully in this region and in fact located this small fragment, which was in a defect in the brain tissue in just precisely this location.

Humes removed the "6.5 mm object". It was the 7 x 2 mm fragment. Humes would later view the enhanced AP X-Ray and , after some difficuity, identify that 6.5 mm object as being the 7 x 2 mm fragment.  Edward Reed and Jerrol Custer identified it without hesitation.

This is just comical, and rather odd. It's like you don't understand what's being said to you, or you just can't bring yourself to deal with it. Let's get a few things straight:

One, the 7 x 2 mm fragment is above the right eye and slightly behind it. That's where Humes found it when he removed it. Nobody but nobody who has seen the AP x-ray denies that the 6.5 mm object is, according to the x-ray, on the back of the skull. Humes removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment from the frontal part of the skull.

Two, again, you can see both the 7 x 2 mm fragment and the 6.5 mm object on the AP x-ray. Both are visible. One is not the other. A 6.5 mm object is not a 7 x 2 mm object. What do you not understand about this basic truth of reality?

Every single expert panel or private expert that has examined the AP x-ray has identified the 7 x 2 mm fragment and the 6.5 mm object on that x-ray. It is ludicrous to suggest that some version of the AP x-ray does not show both objects.

Three, when the ARRB specifically asked Humes about the 6.5 mm object, he said he did not see it during the autopsy. So, obviously, he did not remove it, and, equally obviously, it was not the fragment he was talking about with Specter. 

Four, Reed and Custer most certainly did not "identify it without hesitation" during the autopsy. Custer spent many hours talking with Dr. Mantik about the x-rays, and never once, not one single time, did he claim that he saw the 6.5 mm object during the autopsy.

Five, I notice you again ignored the fact that OD measurements confirm that the 6.5 mm object is not metallic, and even Larry Sturdivan has conceded that the object is not, and cannot be, an FMJ bullet fragment but that it must be an artifact. The only question is, how was this artifact created? So, it is just silly and strange that you keep claiming that Humes removed it during the autopsy. Not only did Humes tell the ARRB that he did not see it during the autopsy, but we now know from hard scientific evidence that the object is not metallic.

Six, OD measurements confirm that inside the 6.5 mm object is a 2.5 mm bullet fragment. This fragment is not readily visible to the naked eye, because its image is obscured by the bright 6.5 mm object, but it is visible under high magnification, and its metallic nature is confirmed by OD measurements.

Seven, I notice you once again ignored the McDonnel fragment. Why do you keep ignoring this crucial piece of evidence? Because your theory of the shooting has no rational, plausible explanation for it? If the 6.5 mm object, as Sturdivan admits, cannot be a bullet fragment from an FMJ bullet, then the McDonnel fragment surely cannot be an FMJ bullet fragment either.

[Mitch Todd]

This is just comical, and rather odd. It's like you don't understand what's being said to you, or you just can't bring yourself to deal with it. Let's get a few things straight:

One, the 7 x 2 mm fragment is above the right eye and slightly behind it. That's where Humes found it when he removed it. Nobody but nobody who has seen the AP x-ray denies that the 6.5 mm object is, according to the x-ray, on the back of the skull. Humes removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment from the frontal part of the skull.
[...]

As anyone who looks at the x-rays will tell you, the 7x2mm fragment is against the right frontal sinus. That is, the fragment lies above and in front of the eye, not behind it. Now, CE388 shows a fragment that winds up behind and slightly above the eye, but here's the catch: The only thing in the head x-rays that would correspond to this position is the 6.5mm opacity seen in the AP x-ray.

Incoming Gish gallop in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....

[Matt Grantham]

 In front of the eye? I only know above, below and behind Maybe i am missing something

[Tim Nickerson]

One, the 7 x 2 mm fragment is above the right eye and slightly behind it. That's where Humes found it when he removed it.

The 7 x 2 mm fragment was above and somewhat behind the right eye. So again, why haven't you posted the enhanced AP and lateral X-Rays with your arrows pointing to the 7 x 2 mm fragment in them?

Nobody but nobody who has seen the AP x-ray denies that the 6.5 mm object is, according to the x-ray, on the back of the skull. Humes removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment from the frontal part of the skull.

That is false. Humes, Reed and Custer all viewed the AP X-Ray and identified the "6.5 mm" object seen on it as being the 7 x 2 mm fragment. The fragment was not removed from the frontal skull bone. It was removed from the brain behind the right eye.

Two, again, you can see both the 7 x 2 mm fragment and the 6.5 mm object on the AP x-ray. Both are visible. One is not the other. A 6.5 mm object is not a 7 x 2 mm object. What do you not understand about this basic truth of reality?

Every single expert panel or private expert that has examined the AP x-ray has identified the 7 x 2 mm fragment and the 6.5 mm object on that x-ray. It is ludicrous to suggest that some version of the AP x-ray does not show both objects.

You would go a long way towards making your case by posting the enhanced lateral X-Ray with an arrow pointing to the 7 x 2 mm fragment in it. When will you do so? When? Seriously, just go ahead and do it. And while you're at it, in the AP view, point an arrow at the fragment that my red arrow is pointed at in the lateral view below.

Three, when the ARRB specifically asked Humes about the 6.5 mm object, he said he did not see it during the autopsy. So, obviously, he did not remove it, and, equally obviously, it was not the fragment he was talking about with Specter. 

Humes acknowledged in his ARRB testimony that the "6.5 mm" object was the 7 x 2 mm fragment that he removed. It was the fragment that he talked about with Specter.

Four, Reed and Custer most certainly did not "identify it without hesitation" during the autopsy.

I didn't say that they identified it during the autopsy. Although, they both did. I said that they identified it immediately when shown the enhanced AP X-ray.

Gunn: Okay. Can you go back and look at it once again, from the left on the screen to the right on the body? There is a semi-circular white dot there. Do you see that?
Reed: Yes. I do.
Gunn: Do you recall seeing that on the night ofthe autopsy?
Reed: Yes. I did.
Gunn: What was your understanding of what that Was?
Reed: That is a metallic fragment from the bullet.
-------------------------------

Gunn: Can you identify that as an autopsy X-Ray that you took on the night of November 22nd/23rd 1963?
Custer: Yes, sir. Correct.
Gunn: HOW can you identify that as being one that you took?
Custer: Bullet fragment, right orbital ridge.
...................
Gunn: Earlier you pointed to what I’m going to call the half-circle that appears to be at the lightest part of the film, and you referred to that as a bullet fragment; is that right?
Custer: Yes, sir.
Gunn: Where was that bullet fragment located? Let me withdraw that question, and ask another question. Do you know where the bullet fragment located on the body?
Custer: Right orbital ridge, superior.

Five, I notice you again ignored the fact that OD measurements confirm that the 6.5 mm object is not metallic, and even Larry Sturdivan has conceded that the object is not, and cannot be, an FMJ bullet fragment but that it must be an artifact. The only question is, how was this artifact created? So, it is just silly and strange that you keep claiming that Humes removed it during the autopsy. Not only did Humes tell the ARRB that he did not see it during the autopsy, but we now know from hard scientific evidence that the object is not metallic.

Six, OD measurements confirm that inside the 6.5 mm object is a 2.5 mm bullet fragment. This fragment is not readily visible to the naked eye, because its image is obscured by the bright 6.5 mm object, but it is visible under high magnification, and its metallic nature is confirmed by OD measurements.

I reject the validity of your OD measurements claims. You are claiming that precise measurements can be made in those X-Rays, when in reality the X-Rays are poor quality films taken on what was then an ancient portable X-Ray machine, which was used for the sole purpose of locating any bullets or large fragments that might have been in the body.

 

Seven, I notice you once again ignored the McDonnel fragment. Why do you keep ignoring this crucial piece of evidence?

The McDonnel fragment is the one that he describes as being "A small metallic fragment is located medial to the location of the spherical metallic fragment [the 6.5 mm object]". McDonnel erroneously placed the "6.5 mm" fragment on the back of the skull. The small fragment that he described was likely the 3 x 1 mm fragment removed by Humes, which he said was in close proximity to the 7 x 2 mm fragment.

[Michael T. Griffith]

The 7 x 2 mm fragment was above and somewhat behind the right eye. So again, why haven't you posted the enhanced AP and lateral X-Rays with your arrows pointing to the 7 x 2 mm fragment in them?

Is this some kind of joke? Both the Clark Panel and the HSCA medical panel identified both the 7 x 2 mm fragment and the 6 x 5 mm object on the AP x-ray, and both panels rejected the absurd idea that the 7 x 2 mm fragment that Humes removed was really the 6.5 mm object. It is astounding that you refuse to come to grips with this fact.

You continue to argue that the 6.5 mm object is actually a bullet fragment and that Humes removed it during the autopsy, when nearly all of your fellow WC apologists now acknowledge that the object is not, and could not be, a bullet fragment. What's more, Humes said the two fragments that he removed were 7 x 2 mm and 3 x 1 mm in size. The 6.5 mm object is, well, 6.5 mm. Again, it is just amazing that you cannot face these facts.

That is false. Humes, Reed and Custer all viewed the AP X-Ray and identified the "6.5 mm" object seen on it as being the 7 x 2 mm fragment.

No, they did not, and your quotes do not actually say this. You are inferring something they did not say.

You're aware that Finck and Boswell both said they did not see the 6.5 mm object on the x-rays during the autopsy, right?

The fragment was not removed from the frontal skull bone. It was removed from the brain behind the right eye.

I did not say it was removed from "frontal skull bone." I said it was removed from the frontal part of the skull. I was not referring to bone but to the frontal area of the head. 

You would go a long way towards making your case by posting the enhanced lateral X-Ray with an arrow pointing to the 7 x 2 mm fragment in it. When will you do so? When? Seriously, just go ahead and do it. And while you're at it, in the AP view, point an arrow at the fragment that my red arrow is pointed at in the lateral view below.

Really? Take a look at this graphic:



See also https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/14rbFerR0QLDHK3wD2ZRxly5ungtICTwf.

Or, look at Figure 17 on page 111 of Volume 7 of the HSCA hearings and exhibits. This is an enlargement of the enhanced AP x-ray. You can clearly see the 7 x 2 mm fragment above and to the left of the 6.5 mm object:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/pdf/HSCA_Vol7_M53a_Kennedy.pdf

Humes acknowledged in his ARRB testimony that the "6.5 mm" object was the 7 x 2 mm fragment that he removed.

He did no such thing. When he was asked specifically about the 6.5 mm object, he said he didn't remember seeing anything that big during the autopsy, as we'll see in a moment. Are you talking about this answer that Humes gave?:

A. Two small irregularly shaped fragments of metal are recovered. They measure 7 by 2 and 3 by 1. Well, that large one that you saw in that first AP view of the skull could be the 7-by-2 millimeter one that we handed over to the FBI.

Is this what you're talking about? I discussed this comment in a previous reply. Humes was speaking off-the-cuff and blundering badly. He was speculating. He did not say the 6.5 object was the 7 x 2 mm fragment--he said it "could" be. But this answer contradicts what he said when he was asked about the 6.5 mm object.

Additionally, how could a 6.5 mm object be a 7 x 2 mm object? Did no one at the autopsy know how to measure? This is ludicrous.

Perhaps this graphic will help--it shows the 7 x 2 mm fragment in the front part of the skull and the small fragment on the back of the skull that should be--but is not--the corresponding lateral image of the 6.5 mm object:



See also https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/14rbFerR0QLDHK3wD2ZRxly5ungtICTwf.

Now, let's see what Humes said when he was specifically asked about the 6.5 mm object:

_______________________________________
Page 212

Q. Dr. Humes, you're now looking at X-ray 5-B No. 1. I'd like to ask you whether you have previously seen that X-ray.
A. I probably have. It's antero-posterior view of the skull and the jaw. . . .
________________________________________
Page 213

Q. Did you notice that what at least appears to be a radio-opaque fragment during the autopsy?
A. Well, I told you we received one--we retrieved one or two, and--of course, you get distortion in the X-ray as far as size goes. The ones we retrieved I didn't think were of the same size as this would lead you to believe.
Q. Did you think they were larger or smaller?
A. Smaller. Smaller, considerably smaller. I mean, these other little things would be about the size of what--I'm not sure what that is or whether that's a defect. I'm not enough of a radiologist to be able to tell you. But I don't remember retrieving anything of that size.
Q. Well, that was going to be a question, whether you had identified that as a possible fragment and then removed it.
A. Truthfully, I don't remember anything that size when I looked at these films. They all were more of the size of these others.

So let's hear no more of the false claim that Humes told the ARRB that he saw the 6.5 mm object during the autopsy. He made it clear that he neither saw nor removed a fragment as large as the 6.5 mm object during the autopsy.

And, again, you're aware that Finck and Boswell both said they did not see the 6.5 mm object on the x-rays during the autopsy, right?

I didn't say that they identified it during the autopsy. Although, they both did. I said that they identified it immediately when shown the enhanced AP X-ray.

Of course they identified it when shown the AP x-ray during their interviews! No kidding! As I've noted dozens of times in this forum, the 6.5 mm object is the most obvious apparent bullet fragment on the AP x-ray, which makes it all the more ludicrous to suggest that the object was on the x-rays at the autopsy but that everyone "missed" it.

Gunn: Okay. Can you go back and look at it once again, from the left on the screen to the right on the body? There is a semi-circular white dot there. Do you see that?
Reed: Yes. I do.
Gunn: Do you recall seeing that on the night ofthe autopsy?
Reed: Yes. I did.
Gunn: What was your understanding of what that Was?
Reed: That is a metallic fragment from the bullet.

Reed was either lying or misremembering. If he saw the 6.5 mm object during the autopsy, why isn't it mentioned in the autopsy report? Why did Custer, in all his many hours of interviews with Dr. Mantik, never say that he had seen the 6.5 mm object during the autopsy? Why did Humes say he did not see it during the autopsy? Why didn't Ebersole mention the object during this testimony? Why did Ebersole refuse to discuss the 6.5 mm object when Dr. Mantik asked him about it in what had been, up to that point, a very friendly and open interview? Why did Finck and Boswell both say that they did not see the 6.5 mm object during the autopsy?

-------------------------------

Gunn: Can you identify that as an autopsy X-Ray that you took on the night of November 22nd/23rd 1963?
Custer: Yes, sir. Correct.
Gunn: HOW can you identify that as being one that you took?
Custer: Bullet fragment, right orbital ridge.
...................
Gunn: Earlier you pointed to what I’m going to call the half-circle that appears to be at the lightest part of the film, and you referred to that as a bullet fragment; is that right?
Custer: Yes, sir.
Gunn: Where was that bullet fragment located? Let me withdraw that question, and ask another question. Do you know where the bullet fragment located on the body?
Custer: Right orbital ridge, superior.[/i]

Custer obviously goofed. The Clark Panel and the HSCA medical panel said it was on the rear outer table of the skull, and they cited it as evidence of their proposed cowlick entry site.

Dr. McDonnel, Dr. Lattimer, Dr. Davis, and the three ARRB forensic experts likewise placed the object on the back of the skull. Dr. Davis, one of the HSCA's forensic consultants, said the following about the 6.5 mm object's location:

There is a metallic fragment about 9 or 1O cm above the external occipital protuberance, which metallic fragment is apparently imbedded in the outer table of the skull. On the frontal view, this metallic fragment is located 2 .5 cm to the right of midline, and on the lateral view, it is approximately 3-4 cm above the lambda. (David O. Davis, "Examination of JFK Autopsy X-Rays," 7 HSCA 222, Addendum D)

I'm assuming you understand that Dr. Davis and Dr. McDonnel were not on the HSCA medical panel but were experts consulted by that panel. They were asked to review the autopsy x-rays and to submit reports on them.

I reject the validity of your OD measurements claims. You are claiming that precise measurements can be made in those X-Rays, when in reality the X-Rays are poor quality films taken on what was then an ancient portable X-Ray machine, which was used for the sole purpose of locating any bullets or large fragments that might have been in the body.

Ah, so here we have it! You reject the established science of optical density measurement on x-rays because the results of two independent OD analyses of the autopsy skull x-rays prove that those x-rays have been altered. I'm guessing you don't care that two scientists independently did OD measurements on the autopsy skull x-rays and that their measurements match almost perfectly. I'm guessing you don't care that Dr. Arthur Haas, who was the chief of Kodak's Department of Medical Physics at the time, proof-read Dr. Mantik's first OD study on the x-rays. I'm guessing you don't care that Dr. Greg Henkelmann, a radiation oncologist and physicist, after reviewing Dr. Mantik's two most recent OD analyses of the autopsy x-rays, says that "to reject alteration of the JFK skull x-rays is to reject basic physics and radiology." I'm guessing you don't care that Dr. Mantik's OD measurements were confirmed by Dr. Michael Chesser, a neurologist who also did OD measurements on JFK's premortem x-rays in Boston.

As for your claim that the autopsy x-rays are "poor quality films taken on what was then an ancient portable X-Ray machine," even Dr. Ebersole said that the GE 250 x-ray machine that they used was good enough for their purpose, which was to locate bullet fragments. Dr. Chesser notes the following about the quality of the autopsy skull x-rays:

In the HSCA report you’ll find this very blurred image of the original right lateral skull x-ray (actually the inventory lists two left lateral skull x-rays). Looking at this image in the report would make you think that this x-ray is in horrible condition, and that the anterior half of the skull was so dim that no useful information could be obtained. That couldn’t be further from the truth. The actual original x-rays are in excellent condition, showing only minor aging, and this blurred copy doesn’t represent the original film well. This blurred image is very misleading – the purported reason for the need to enhance the x-rays was the poor image quality – that simply isn’t true. (https://assassinationofjfk.net/a-review-of-the-jfk-cranial-x-rays-and-photographs/)

The McDonnel fragment is the one that he describes as being "A small metallic fragment is located medial to the location of the spherical metallic fragment [the 6.5 mm object]". McDonnel erroneously placed the "6.5 mm" fragment on the back of the skull. The small fragment that he described was likely the 3 x 1 mm fragment removed by Humes, which he said was in close proximity to the 7 x 2 mm fragment.

LOL! Oh, so McDonnel "erroneously" placed the 6.5 mm object on the back of the skull?! Really?! Well, again, the Clark Panel and the HSCA medical panel also placed the object on the back of the skull! Dr. Davis placed the object on the back of the skull. The ARRB's three forensic experts placed the object on the back of the skull. Even Dr. Lattimer placed the object in the back of the skull! What in the world are you talking about? Do you understand how silly your claims are here?

No, the McDonnel fragment is not the 3 x 1 mm fragment. McDonnel specified that the fragment was "between the galea and the outer table of the skull."

And what about the 2.5 mm fragment that's inside the image of the 6.5 mm object? This fragment is visible under high magnification and its metallic nature has been confirmed by OD measurements. Oh, that's right: you reject the established science of OD measurement.

Are you ever going to deal with Larry Sturdivan's observations on why the 6.5 mm object simply cannot be an FMJ bullet fragment? His compelling case on this issue is the reason that nearly all of your fellow WC apologists now acknowledge that the object is an artifact. The only issue is whether the artifact was created accidentally or intentionally. Yet, here you are, apparently caught in a time warp, still arguing that the object is a bullet fragment.