JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
LNers Can't Explain the Two Back-of-Head Bullet Fragments
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on August 06, 2025, 01:16:23 AM ---Most of the fragments in CE-859 have no real size to them. That is, they can't rightfully be described as sizable. I notice that you changed your original claim of "FMJ bullets do not shatter into dozens of fragments when they penetrate skulls" to "FMJ bullets do not shatter into dozens of tiny fragments when hitting a skull". Why did you do that?
--- End quote ---
That's just different verbiage that's saying essentially the same thing. I usually say "penetrating" but sometimes say "hitting."
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on August 06, 2025, 01:16:23 AM ---Why should we expect the fragmentation pattern in the WC test-skull x-rays to match the pattern we see in the JFK skull x-rays?
--- End quote ---
Is this a serious question? I hope not.
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on August 06, 2025, 01:16:23 AM ---"The lead fragments in the test skull show a clearer path of the bullet, as they stayed in place after the shot. Many of the fragments deposited in the President’s brain were flushed out, along with the brain tissue, as the large amount of blood flowed out of the explosive wound in the side of his head, in the car and in Parkland. It is evidently some of these that were deposited on the bone flaps by clotting blood that show as a “trail” of fragments near the top of the lateral view. This “trail” does not show on the frontal view, and is much higher than the FPP’s reconstructed trajectory. In fact, at the apparent location of these fragments there was no brain matter in which the fragments could be embedded."
Sturdivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 192). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.
--- End quote ---
This is the kind of confusion and silliness you get from experts who refuse to follow the evidence where it leads. When Sturdivan was writing this stuff, he apparently forgot that in the WC's wound ballistics head-shot test, they simulated brain tissue by placing gelatin in the cadaver skulls, and that the autopsy doctors said that the skull x-rays that they took and examined showed a trail of fragments starting at the EOP site and coursing upward to the right orbit. He apparently also forgot that the extant autopsy brain photos show no damage to the cerebellum or to the right-rear parietal lobe, which means, if these photos are genuine, that there would have been brain tissue in which the EOP-to-right-orbit fragments could have lodged. He apparently also forgot that the autopsy doctors said that part of the exit wound extended into the occiput, yet no such wound is seen in the current autopsy photos. He apparently also forgot that dozens of witnesses, including medical personnel and federal agents, said the exit wound was in the right-rear part of the skull, not above the right ear. And he also seemed to forget that the exit wounds in the WC test skulls looked nothing like JFK's exit wound.
And on and on we could go.
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on August 06, 2025, 01:16:23 AM ---Mr. SPECTER - When you refer to this fragment, and you are pointing there (on CE-388), are you referring to the fragment depicted right above the President's right eye?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; above and somewhat behind the President's eye.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you proceed, then, to tell us what you did then?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We directed carefully in this region and in fact located this small fragment, which was in a defect in the brain tissue in just precisely this location.
Where is the fragment that is seen imbedded in the frontal skull bone in the lateral view visible in the anterior view? Point it out to me.
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Are you serious? As I've explained to you several times, and as Humes himself made clear, Humes was referring to the 7 x 2 mm fragment. The 7 x 2 mm fragment was removed from behind the right orbital ridge. In the autopsy report, Humes said that the 7 x 2 mm fragment was removed “from the surface of the disrupted right cerebral cortex” (p. 4). In his WC testimony, Humes said the 7 x 2 mm fragment was removed from “above and somewhat behind the President’s eye” (2 H 354). Humes said the two fragments that he removed were 7 x 2 mm and 3 x 1 mm in size. He measured them after he removed them.
Why are we still even talking about this?
Dr. Mantik points out that the 6.3 x 2.5 mm back-of-head fragment 1 cm below the debunked cowlick entry site is only 3-4 mm thick but that the 6.5 mm object's OD measurement shows that it would be nearly 40 mm thick if it were actually metallic; in contrast, the 7 x 2 mm fragment is 2 mm thick on the lateral x-rays, which is consistent with its OD measurement of 1.44 (JFK Assassination Paradoxes, 2022, p. 24).
In OD measurements, larger numbers mean less density, while smaller numbers mean more density. As mentioned, the 6.5 mm object's OD measurement is an impossible 0.60, 0.84 lower than that of the 7 x 2 mm fragment. Even more revealing, the OD measurement of the four dental fillings combined is 0.76, 0.16 higher than the 6.5 mm object's measurement. Thus, if the 6.5 mm object were a bullet fragment, it would be denser than all four dental fillings combined, an obvious impossibility and a clear indication of forgery.
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 08, 2025, 05:03:50 PM ---
This is the kind of confusion and silliness you get from experts who refuse to follow the evidence where it leads. When Sturdivan was writing this stuff, he apparently forgot that in the WC's wound ballistics head-shot test, they simulated brain tissue by placing gelatin in the cadaver skulls, and that the autopsy doctors said that the skull x-rays that they took and examined showed a trail of fragments starting at the EOP site and coursing upward to the right orbit. He apparently also forgot that the extant autopsy brain photos show no damage to the cerebellum or to the right-rear parietal lobe, which means, if these photos are genuine, that there would have been brain tissue in which the EOP-to-right-orbit fragments could have lodged. He apparently also forgot that the autopsy doctors said that part of the exit wound extended into the occiput, yet no such wound is seen in the current autopsy photos. He apparently also forgot that dozens of witnesses, including medical personnel and federal agents, said the exit wound was in the right-rear part of the skull, not above the right ear. And he also seemed to forget that the exit wounds in the WC test skulls looked nothing like JFK's exit wound.
And on and on we could go.
Are you serious? As I've explained to you several times, and as Humes himself made clear, Humes was referring to the 7 x 2 mm fragment. The 7 x 2 mm fragment was removed from behind the right orbital ridge. In the autopsy report, Humes said that the 7 x 2 mm fragment was removed “from the surface of the disrupted right cerebral cortex” (p. 4). In his WC testimony, Humes said the 7 x 2 mm fragment was removed from “above and somewhat behind the President’s eye” (2 H 354). Humes said the two fragments that he removed were 7 x 2 mm and 3 x 1 mm in size. He measured them after he removed them.
Why are we still even talking about this?
Dr. Mantik points out that the 6.3 x 2.5 mm back-of-head fragment 1 cm below the debunked cowlick entry site is only 3-4 mm thick but that the 6.5 mm object's OD measurement shows that it would be nearly 40 mm thick if it were actually metallic; in contrast, the 7 x 2 mm fragment is 2 mm thick on the lateral x-rays, which is consistent with its OD measurement of 1.44 (JFK Assassination Paradoxes, 2022, p. 24).
In OD measurements, larger numbers mean less density, while smaller numbers mean more density. As mentioned, the 6.5 mm object's OD measurement is an impossible 0.60, 0.84 lower than that of the 7 x 2 mm fragment. Even more revealing, the OD measurement of the four dental fillings combined is 0.76, 0.16 higher than the 6.5 mm object's measurement. Thus, if the 6.5 mm object were a bullet fragment, it would be denser than all four dental fillings combined, an obvious impossibility and a clear indication of forgery.
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Just bumping this thread to remind readers that WC apologists have no credible explanation for the back-of-head bullet fragments, for the 6.5 mm object, for the autopsy doctors' failure to mention the high fragment trail, and for the fact that the extant autopsy x-rays do not show the EOP-to-right-orbit fragment trail described in the autopsy report and reaffirmed by the autopsy doctors after viewing the autopsy materials for five hours in 1966.
Jack Nessan:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 12, 2025, 06:14:03 PM ---Just bumping this thread to remind readers that WC apologists have no credible explanation for the back-of-head bullet fragments, for the 6.5 mm object, for the autopsy doctors' failure to mention the high fragment trail, and for the fact that the extant autopsy x-rays do not show the EOP-to-right-orbit fragment trail described in the autopsy report and reaffirmed by the autopsy doctors after viewing the autopsy materials for five hours in 1966.
--- End quote ---
.."and for the fact that the extant autopsy x-rays do not show the EOP-to-right-orbit fragment trail"
Because there was no brain left to leave a trail in. Even you seem to understand that or you did once, anyway.
MG-- "As I said, Dr. Hodges’ observation that in the skull x-rays “a goodly portion of the right brain is apparently missing” has been confirmed by several experts, including Dr. Mantik, Dr. Chesser, and Dr. Aguilar. Dr. Mantik confirmed this both with direct analysis and with OD measurements, determining that over one-half of the right side of the brain is missing in the skull x-rays.
Further confirmation of this comes from a surprising source: Dr. James Humes. Humes admitted to JAMA that "two thirds of the right cerebrum had been blown away" (Journal of the American Medical Association [JAMA], May 27, 1992, p. 2798).
We also know that bits of JFK's brain were blown onto 16 surfaces, including the windshields of the two left-trailing patrolmen, the windshield of the follow-up car, Agent Kinney's clothes, Jackie's dress, the rear hood, and on several surfaces inside the limo."
John Mytton:
--- Quote from: Jack Nessan on August 13, 2025, 02:56:51 AM ---.."and for the fact that the extant autopsy x-rays do not show the EOP-to-right-orbit fragment trail"
Because there was no brain left to leave a trail
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Exactly, this is so obvious that even blind Freddy could work it out, when Griffith initially posted his "theory", I pointed out with the following visual aid that a large portion of the right hemisphere of Kennedy's brain was blasted out and subsequently the accompanying lead fragments went along with the exploding matter, it's not exactly rocket science. But Griffith never has been the sharpest tool in the shed.
JohnM
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Jack Nessan on August 13, 2025, 02:56:51 AM ---.."and for the fact that the extant autopsy x-rays do not show the EOP-to-right-orbit fragment trail"
Because there was no brain left to leave a trail in. Even you seem to understand that or you did once, anyway.
MG-- "As I said, Dr. Hodges’ observation that in the skull x-rays “a goodly portion of the right brain is apparently missing” has been confirmed by several experts, including Dr. Mantik, Dr. Chesser, and Dr. Aguilar. Dr. Mantik confirmed this both with direct analysis and with OD measurements, determining that over one-half of the right side of the brain is missing in the skull x-rays.
Further confirmation of this comes from a surprising source: Dr. James Humes. Humes admitted to JAMA that "two thirds of the right cerebrum had been blown away" (Journal of the American Medical Association [JAMA], May 27, 1992, p. 2798).
We also know that bits of JFK's brain were blown onto 16 surfaces, including the windshields of the two left-trailing patrolmen, the windshield of the follow-up car, Agent Kinney's clothes, Jackie's dress, the rear hood, and on several surfaces inside the limo."
--- End quote ---
So I take it, then, that you now admit that the JFK autopsy brain photos are clearly fake, that they cannot be photos of JFK's brain because they show only "an ounce or two" of brain matter missing? They show a show large front-to-back laceration but virtually no missing brain tissue. Dr. Baden assured Vincent Bugliosi that the brain photos show no more than "an ounce or two" of brain tissue missing. They also show the cerebellum to be undamaged, a fact that led Dr. Finck to question their authenticity when questioned by the HSCA FPP.
I don't think you understand the problems here. For one thing, the large amount of missing brain does not affect the back-of-head fragments because those fragments are in the two layers of the outer table of the skull. Your side has no rational, credible explanation for those fragments and for the 6.5 mm object.
I certainly agree that the x-rays show a large chunk of the right side of the brain missing. Dr. Mantik and Dr. Chesser have confirmed this with OD measurements. But the autopsy brain photos show virtually no tissue missing from the right side of the brain, no more than "an ounce or two." So either the brain photos do not show JFK's brain or the autopsy x-rays are not x-rays of JFK's skull.
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