The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Walt Cakebread]

I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

The extractor engages the cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and the very bottom portion of the bolt pushes the very top of the back of the cartridge forward until it clears the clip and is pushed up by the elevator into the receiver. Here are two of the cutaway frames that show this:


Here, the cartridge is being pushed forward by the bolt and the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.





At this point in the forward motion of the bolt, the extractor is already engaged (into the groove between the base and the body of the cartridge). And if you were to stop the forward motion of the bolt at this point and pull it backwards, the cartridge would be pulled backwards also and ejected if pulled completely back to the fully open position. In other words, the bolt does not have to be rotated down to the locked position in order for the extractor to engage the cartridge (as you indicate is the case with the Mauser).

And Robert Frazier testified under oath that C-139 will (if the bolt is opened with minimal force) not throw the shell out with force, but will let it fall down at your feet.



This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work

He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.

I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

No other rifle should be used to attempt to verify the mechanical operation of the mannlicher carcano.

And I believe that you understand how the carcano operates , Charles..... Though you're not precisely correct in describing how the cartridge is chambered.... 

"the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge."

the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards (AND INTO THE ANNULAR SPACE ON THE FRONT OF THE BOLT ) such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.





If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired


pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired

Yes, and this is just one of the indicators that reveal that the rifle was never at that sixth floor window...It was hidden beneath the boxes of books BEFORE the shooting.


He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.

Yes, Hiding the rifle would have bought him time ....and that was the plan, and it probably would have been hours or possible a day if the double crossers who played Lee for a sucker, by setting him up to be framed for murdering JFK....when they shot President Kennedy. 

Lee thought that he was participating in a hoax in which it would appear that he had shot  AT AT  JFK.
And if JFK had not been killed there would have been no mad rush to find the killer.   He hid that rifle before the motorcade arrived.   If the cops had been looking for a person who had fired a gun as the president passed by....they wouldn't have been in a mad rush to find that person and his gun.  But the killers foiled Lee's plan of fleeing to Cuba after the cops reported that someone had shot at JFK from the TSBD.   They learned this after the spent shells, and the rifle were found by the employees who would have been working on the sixth floor that afternoon.   Lee thought that he would have been in Mexico by
 the time the shells and rifle were found.

[Walt Cakebread]

I just did an experiment with my K-98 Mauser rifle with the the following results:

1. After manually chambering one cartridge with the bolt left retracted (ie: fully open exposing the magazine well) the round did not slide out when the rifle was held vertically, barrel up.

2. After pushing the bolt forward without locking it down by rotating the handle down, I then retracted the bolt and found that the extractor did not  grip the ridge of the cartridge and the round stayed in the camber , even with the rifle in vertical position.

3 The round stayed in the chamber of the vertically oriented barrel uo rifle even when I tapped the butt on the floor a couple of times.

4. In order to get the round out, I had to actually push the bolt forward and  lock the  bolt fully forward by rotating the handle down fully, which apparently is the ONLY way that the extractor engages the inside of the cartridge rim. Then when I then  rotated the bolt handle counter clockwise and retracted the bolt QUICKLY  to the rear stop position, the cartridge was  pulled out and then “ejected”  (as opposed to simply “falling out.)

5. I then tried a SLOW  retraction of the bolt and found that although the cartridge was pulled out, it did NOT get ejected, nor even fall out , but remained gripped by the extractor, I had to  push the bolt forward again reseating the round in the chamber and then retract rhe bolt more quickly and with more force to cause proper ejection of the cartridge.

IIf the K98 Mauser bolt action and tolerances are similar  enough to the MC rifle bolt and extractor mechanism then my experiment demonstrates that for a cartridge to simply “ fall out” would suggest a cartridge that was NOT fully seated into the chamber, thus the bolt was never fully pushed forward enough in the 1st place.

This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot,
( the Carcano is automatically loaded and ready to fire a fresh cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and latched, after extracting the spent shell from the previous cartridge. It's simply a reflex reaction ...when the shooter ejects the spent shell he instinctively closes and latches the bolt, and when he does the rifle is ready to fire) then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.

[Zeon Mason]

So what the conclusion here? If the bolt handle should have been  locked by reflex action of a shooter trying to operate this MC rifle as quickly as possible to fire 3 shots, ( which still requires about 7-8 secs by most experiments not withstanding the dubious CBS time trial alleged feat of one old timer getting 3 hits in 5.1sec) , then why is the bolt handle open and why  did a round just “ fall out” when Fritz takes the rifle from Day?

Is there possibility of the bolt handle being rotated upward and unlocking the bolt via pushing or dropping the rifle in the gap between the 2 parallel rows of boxes?

Could the action of Fritz slowly pulling the bolt back have not been sufficient force  to eject the round properly, thus the round was pulled  partly out and then fell out ?

If the extractor never had a grip on the rim of the cartridge because the cartridge was  placed by hand into the breech with the bolt open, and the bolt only pushed forward about 90% and the bolt handle up. Then what’s the reason for that?

Responding to the notion it was “smart” to carry a rifle across the 6th floor being in LOS of the rear staircase to gain time:

Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

Other things that Oswald allegedly did that (imo) do NOT seem smart:

1. supposedly using his own handwriting to spell a fake name on a mail order form for a rifle supposedly to be sent by mail .

2.Oswald supposedly using his own P.O. Box address for the rifle ordered by fake name to be sent to also.

3. Oswald supposedly carrying his fake ID while he was supposedly  shooting JFK and also while he was supposedly shooting Tippet and then dropping the billfold with that fake ID at the scene ( along with spent shells)

[Walt Cakebread]

So what the conclusion here? If the bolt handle should have been  locked by reflex action of a shooter trying to operate this MC rifle as quickly as possible to fire 3 shots, ( which still requires about 7-8 secs by most experiments not withstanding the dubious CBS time trial alleged feat of one old timer getting 3 hits in 5.1sec) , then why is the bolt handle open and why  did a round just “ fall out” when Fritz takes the rifle from Day?

Is there possibility of the bolt handle being rotated upward and unlocking the bolt via pushing or dropping the rifle in the gap between the 2 parallel rows of boxes?

Could the action of Fritz slowly pulling the bolt back have not been sufficient force  to eject the round properly, thus the round was pulled  partly out and then fell out ?

If the extractor never had a grip on the rim of the cartridge because the cartridge was  placed by hand into the breech with the bolt open, and the bolt only pushed forward about 90% and the bolt handle up. Then what’s the reason for that?

Responding to the notion it was “smart” to carry a rifle across the 6th floor being in LOS of the rear staircase to gain time:

Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

Other things that Oswald allegedly did that (imo) do NOT seem smart:

1. supposedly using his own handwriting to spell a fake name on a mail order form for a rifle supposedly to be sent by mail .

2.Oswald supposedly using his own P.O. Box address for the rifle ordered by fake name to be sent to also.

3. Oswald supposedly carrying his fake ID while he was supposedly  shooting JFK and also while he was supposedly shooting Tippet and then dropping the billfold with that fake ID at the scene ( along with spent shells)

Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

You raise an interesting point , Zeon...   The rifle was hidden where it was, because the site was along the logical path that a fleeing attempted assassin would use in leaving the sixth floor.   ( in fact that is the reason that Boone and Weitzman found the rifle. They calculated that if there was a gun left behind by the fleeing gunman, it would probably be found along his logical escape route. )

The person who hid that rifle knew that he should hide it along the escape route....

[Dan O'meara]

Why risk being seen carrying the rifle when there are plenty of other rows of boxes that  could have obscured the rifle even better and were NOT in LOS to the staircase .and would have probably taken just as long to find.

You raise an interesting point , Zeon...   The rifle was hidden where it was, because the site was along the logical path that a fleeing attempted assassin would use in leaving the sixth floor.   ( in fact that is the reason that Boone and Weitzman found the rifle. They calculated that if there was a gun left behind by the fleeing gunman, it would probably be found along his logical escape route. )

The person who hid that rifle knew that he should hide it along the escape route....

And why bother going to the trouble of building a hiding place for the rifle, try to wipe it clean of all prints but leave the empty shells just lying there.

[Michael Walton]

And why bother going to the trouble of building a hiding place for the rifle, try to wipe it clean of all prints but leave the empty shells just lying there.

Yes, exactly. Great point. It makes no sense. Here we have a guy supposedly doing the deed up there, lets the shells fly all over the place [and one shell's rim was dented BTW] but takes the time to wipe down the gun and hide it. If there really had been someone up there and they took the shells too, think of the interesting ramifications that would entail about the official narrative. So I've always thought of the throw down shells as being like breadcrumbs for the story.

It reminds me of the Jeff MacDonald case - three strangers go into the home and cause all kinds of havoc on the women in there, leave old Jeff with a scratch, he supposedly fights them off, the coffee table is turned over, but all of the nick knacks on the curio shelf are undisturbed.

As for the gun itself, here's a variant of the rifle. I'm no gun expert but creaky to use. And per Pat Speer looking through the misaligned scope would have caused even more time per shot to look through it and find the target because of the warped view in a scope. He supposedly hit Kennedy in the back, loads, looks through the scope, scores a supposedly wild shot way off and downwind, loads and looks in it again and scores the head shot.

Sure, sure he did.

[Walt Cakebread]

Yes, exactly. Great point. It makes no sense. Here we have a guy supposedly doing the deed up there, lets the shells fly all over the place [and one shell's rim was dented BTW] but takes the time to wipe down the gun and hide it. If there really had been someone up there and they took the shells too, think of the interesting ramifications that would entail about the official narrative. So I've always thought of the throw down shells as being like breadcrumbs for the story.

It reminds me of the Jeff MacDonald case - three strangers go into the home and cause all kinds of havoc on the women in there, leave old Jeff with a scratch, he supposedly fights them off, the coffee table is turned over, but all of the nick knacks on the curio shelf are undisturbed.

As for the gun itself, here's a variant of the rifle. I'm no gun expert but creaky to use. And per Pat Speer looking through the misaligned scope would have caused even more time per shot to look through it and find the target because of the warped view in a scope. He supposedly hit Kennedy in the back, loads, looks through the scope, scores a supposedly wild shot way off and downwind, loads and looks in it again and scores the head shot.

Sure, sure he did.

I believe that when the rifle was found, the fact that the bolt was not closed and latched is a very strong indicator that the rifle was not fired that day.... Because if it had been fired, the shooter would have closed and latched the bolt by reflex action.   Don't believe it?.... Watch the video....   The man opens the bolt to extract and eject the spent round and then closes and latches the bolt, by reflex action, and re-aims the rifle and fires

The bolt was not closed and latched because it couldn't be closed and latched...And the reason it couldn't be closed and latched is because the yokel who hid the rifle beneath the pallet of boxes of books simply dropped the live round into the chamber.....and the carcano cannot be loaded in that manner.