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Author Topic: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film  (Read 3854 times)

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2022, 11:49:54 PM »
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A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film...This summarizes the results of an extended study taking a closer look at JFK’s motions....- There was no indication of a frontal shot striking the President
There's nothing 'new' about all that. It appears to be the same old Belin/Ford/Spector blurb.

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2022, 11:49:54 PM »


Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2022, 04:51:40 AM »
A few comments and questions only on the parts in question.

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A bullet passing between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, glancing off the transverse process of T1, would almost inevitably sever, or at least severely damage, the nerve marked T1 in the diagram, affecting in particular the Ulnar nerve which has its roots in the "T1" (and C8) nerve. The Ulnar nerve runs the length of the arm, entering the hand where it "flexes the ring and little fingers at the distal interphalangeal joint".
A bullet severing the Ulnar nerve may cause the hand to rapidly contract, however the Ulnar nerve only controls the flexion of the ring and little fingers.
I wish I could find a clearer image than the one below but there is a very strange aspect of JFK's hands in reaction to being shot. One might expect someone to 'clutch' at their throat if they were shot there but JFK doesn't do this. Instead he appears to clench his hands into fists and thrusts them under the area of his chin.
But even this is not quite correct. A clear image (I've seen one but can't find it at the moment) reveals that JFK appears to be 'pointing' at his throat:


I believe this indicates the bullet has severed his Ulnar nerve, causing some of his fingers (ring and little) to instantly clench shut but leaving his index finger unaffected and in a 'pointing' position.
I’m not sure about damage to the ulnar nerve, which looks to branch from the medial cord just before the armpit. Not sure how the bullet would go down there to sever the ulnar nerve, did you mean damage to the nerve root further back up near the transverse process that only effected the ulnar nerve?

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It is important to note a secondary explosion, referred to as "dieseling", that occurs within the cavitation. I believe this plays an important role in the headshot itself.

I have heard of dieseling effect, but not heard of any theory of an internal explosion in the head by dieseling. That’s an interesting new one to me.

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By the moment of the headshot JFK's arms have come down and his head has slumped forward, if anything this is indicative that his neck has totally relaxed by the time of the headshot. A frame from just before the headshot shows this relaxed posture more clearly:

Based on the neurological references I found, I think that spastic paralysis is what you are seeing happen in the upper torso area around the z222 strike location, and it was dynamic here, not instantaneous, and progresses from ~z226-z254 and then it was effectively in place for the near term (did not just instantly go away in a few seconds) and was complete with the stiffness set in and basically in place, where he looked the same from ~z262-312 and where his position did not change much at all. I thought he effectively looked “locked in place” and ITEK called him “frozen” up to z312. There were small changes in posture witch I attribute to the forces on him over this time frame like Jackie trying to pull down on his extended arm and of course gravity doing some work on the body.

Bottom line, I don’t believe upper body spastic paralysis would set in so dramatically and then passively totally disappear in less than 5 seconds. I don’t believe the people that I showed in photographs with similar spastic paralysis symptoms had those symptoms photographed only within 5 seconds of their occurrence before their symptoms disappeared.

But as you saw in my earlier discussion, an active intervention like the z313 head strike could facilitate flaccid paralysis setting in, much more extensively and quicker, in as soon at 0.2 seconds.

What you may be thinking about is his bending forward in this z262-312 timeframe, and I could see where you could see it as a relaxation or slump. If the spasticity did not effect his lower torso/abdominals, then that part of him might have leaned forward and slumped forward. Perhaps the blow to the back would nudge him forward a little. If however, spasticity was able to extend that far down then it might cause some forward bending, if so then that is what is observed.

In either case, his bending forward would continue to where the forward pressure on the back brace became equalized by the back brace restoring force pushing backwards which would keep his body at an equilibrium or neutral tilted position until z313 when it was displaced some more forward beyond that neutral position, loading up the back brace with a cantilever like force that quickly began to push the torso backwards as indicated by the upper torso’s position motion measured over time.

Net, there is plenty of reason to believe there was stiffness, at least in the upper torso, through z312.

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The gif below was created by John Mytton and clearly shows the massive injury to the top of JFK's head:

I haven’t studied the dynamics of the head rupture and relative to the x-rays etc., but doesn’t all this agree with what Larry Sturdivan said in that it can be difficult to determine the direction of a bullet just by looking at the blowout? I believe this would be because the internal cranium pressure rises high in all directions and would blow out the weakest area which could be set up by a bullet exit, or just a weak skull bone area. I’m thinking one of weakest areas of the skull is the temple area, so if a bullet or fragment exited that area, it would be pretty ripe for a blowout starting.

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If there was any jet effect it would be related to these lines of ejected material being blown from the top of JFK's head. The direction of any jet effect can be seen to have no component that would drive JFK's head backwards:

I thought the white dots were supposed to be skull fragments tumbling in the air during the camera exposure, with the bright side showing up after each rotation. If so, this would represent only two pieces of mass. Wouldn’t you want to consider all the mass ejected to do a mass and momentum balance when making a judgement on if there was any jet effect in play? It is fair to ignore all that red fan gunk ahead of his forehead and face? Should brain, scalp, blood, connective tissue, and perhaps other fragments be excluded? Even if one did ignore all this other stuff, wouldn’t two vectors representing the recoil of these two displayed vectors have some down and to the back components?

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But what is the cause of the upwards explosion of skull and brain matter that lacerates the scalp?
The answer is "cavitation". Take one more look at this video posted above demonstrating cavitation caused by a bullet. It is this force acting on the compromised skull that, quite literally, blows the top of the head off.

I agree with you here, the high internal cranial pressure would create havoc. Everyone uses the term but I wish there was another word besides "cavitation" to describe a high internal pressure.

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After the neck shot JFK has a almost instantaneous reflex reaction causing his body to stiffen as his elbows shoot up to their full extent.
His body then relaxes and his head slumps forward. When the shot hits the back of his head it drives it forward and downward. Having nowhere else to go, his head rebounds upwards and backwards in the characteristic "back and to the left" motion.

It looks like the main differences here to explain all JFK’s motion are just related to the models we have in place. You have a head bounce off the chest with no jet effect involved as the process, whereas my assumptions are different.  Beyond that many of the observations are similar.



Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2022, 05:02:34 AM »
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There's nothing 'new' about all that. It appears to be the same old Belin/Ford/Spector blurb.

That's good news if they did the modeling before. I'm curious to know what they had for an omega value for the head/neck from z316 to z324. Do you recall?

Thx

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2022, 05:02:34 AM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2022, 07:20:19 AM »
The Nicholas Nalli study----
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844017331882#bbr0060
This statement....
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the depiction of a fatal wound to the head caused by a high-powered military rifle bullet, something that ordinary citizens would not have had an inkling about in that era.
....strikes me as rather verbose. What was different about 'that era'? The Dark Ages?
 Mr Nalli makes a statement that is not universally accepted but with which I agree---
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a careful comparison between [the] two frames also reveals that President Kennedy's head snaps forward from Z312 to Z313
I have postulated that this just might be because there were two separate strikes to the head. One from behind and one from the right front where many in attendance claim.
Harold Weisberg also thought this...
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- The head shot (or shots) remain a puzzzle, but
probably represent two nearly simultaneous impacts, first
from the rear, then from the front.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/DeSalles%20Doug%20Jr/Item%2001.pdf
This would agree with earwitness accounts that at that moment the sound was a babam report. Localizing origins would have been astronomical.
Dan Rather viewed a private showing of the Zapruder film shortly after the event. He described it...
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After the final shot, the presidents head slumped forward.
A deliberate lie.
I also read thru... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/
Mr Nalli may know about physics/arithmetic but I don't think he really knows very much about the assassination.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2022, 09:16:35 AM »
A few comments and questions only on the parts in question.
I’m not sure about damage to the ulnar nerve, which looks to branch from the medial cord just before the armpit. Not sure how the bullet would go down there to sever the ulnar nerve, did you mean damage to the nerve root further back up near the transverse process that only effected the ulnar nerve?

I posted:

"A bullet passing between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, glancing off the transverse process of T1, would almost inevitably sever, or at least severely damage, the nerve marked T1 in the diagram, affecting in particular the Ulnar nerve which has its roots in the "T1" (and C8) nerve."

I make no mention of "damage" to the Ulnar nerve, only that it is affected by damage to it's root. The reason I postulate this is the unusual "pointing finger" aspect of JFK's, otherwise clenched, hand. I believe this hand position is a signifier of severe nerve damage caused by the bullet's transit through the neck.

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Based on the neurological references I found, I think that spastic paralysis is what you are seeing happen in the upper torso area around the z222 strike location, and it was dynamic here, not instantaneous, and progresses from ~z226-z254 and then it was effectively in place for the near term (did not just instantly go away in a few seconds) and was complete with the stiffness set in and basically in place, where he looked the same from ~z262-312 and where his position did not change much at all. I thought he effectively looked “locked in place” and ITEK called him “frozen” up to z312. There were small changes in posture witch I attribute to the forces on him over this time frame like Jackie trying to pull down on his extended arm and of course gravity doing some work on the body.

Bottom line, I don’t believe upper body spastic paralysis would set in so dramatically and then passively totally disappear in less than 5 seconds. I don’t believe the people that I showed in photographs with similar spastic paralysis symptoms had those symptoms photographed only within 5 seconds of their occurrence before their symptoms disappeared.

But as you saw in my earlier discussion, an active intervention like the z313 head strike could facilitate flaccid paralysis setting in, much more extensively and quicker, in as soon at 0.2 seconds.

What you may be thinking about is his bending forward in this z262-312 timeframe, and I could see where you could see it as a relaxation or slump. If the spasticity did not effect his lower torso/abdominals, then that part of him might have leaned forward and slumped forward. Perhaps the blow to the back would nudge him forward a little. If however, spasticity was able to extend that far down then it might cause some forward bending, if so then that is what is observed.

In either case, his bending forward would continue to where the forward pressure on the back brace became equalized by the back brace restoring force pushing backwards which would keep his body at an equilibrium or neutral tilted position until z313 when it was displaced some more forward beyond that neutral position, loading up the back brace with a cantilever like force that quickly began to push the torso backwards as indicated by the upper torso’s position motion measured over time.

Net, there is plenty of reason to believe there was stiffness, at least in the upper torso, through z312.

Again. I just have to totally disagree with this analysis.
The very extreme initial reaction of JFK's body to the neck shot is obvious.
He straightens up, his elbows fly up to their fullest extent and his body momentarily stiffens. There can be little doubt about that.
But none of this is present by the time of the headshot.
If the paralysis was still present JFK would still be in this extreme position - elbows up, sat rigidly straight. Gravity would have no effect on this. In the clip below we see JFK's fists shoot to his neck area, his elbows fly up and he sits rigidly upright and is "frozen" for an instant. His arms then begin to relax, he looks towards Jackie as his whole body relaxes, he slumps slightly to his left, his arms come fully down and his head slumps forward as his neck relaxes:



To imagine he is in any way still displaying the paralysis of the initial reaction is baffling. There is no component of his initial paralysis present at the moment of the headshot so I find it very difficult to understand how this can be assumed. His body stays in the same position leading up the headshot but this is clearly due to his body being in a relaxed state, not a rigid one.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

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I haven’t studied the dynamics of the head rupture and relative to the x-rays etc., but doesn’t all this agree with what Larry Sturdivan said in that it can be difficult to determine the direction of a bullet just by looking at the blowout? I believe this would be because the internal cranium pressure rises high in all directions and would blow out the weakest area which could be set up by a bullet exit, or just a weak skull bone area. I’m thinking one of weakest areas of the skull is the temple area, so if a bullet or fragment exited that area, it would be pretty ripe for a blowout starting.

The bullet entering and exiting the skull creates massive weak spots. The scalp is punctured at both places and the skull itself is shattered into smaller pieces. The cavitation explodes through these weakened areas lacerating the scalp between the two puncture points as it blows the shattered pieces of skull upwards. All structural integrity of the skull is compromised at the moment of cavitation (as is the integrity of the scalp)
We don't need to determine the direction of the bullet from the blowout so I'm not sure how Sturdivan fits into it, to be honest.

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I thought the white dots were supposed to be skull fragments tumbling in the air during the camera exposure, with the bright side showing up after each rotation. If so, this would represent only two pieces of mass. Wouldn’t you want to consider all the mass ejected to do a mass and momentum balance when making a judgement on if there was any jet effect in play? It is fair to ignore all that red fan gunk ahead of his forehead and face? Should brain, scalp, blood, connective tissue, and perhaps other fragments be excluded? Even if one did ignore all this other stuff, wouldn’t two vectors representing the recoil of these two displayed vectors have some down and to the back components?

Indeed, the white dots are skull fragments being fired into the air by the immense pressures involved. They do not represent any kind of jet effect and if the did it is quite clear that they would provide no backward component to JFK's head movement. In fact, I believe the larger of the "jets" would have a forward component to it. But, as I say, it's not the jet effect, it's material being ejected from the head by the explosive cavitation.
Just to put my cards on the table - I think the Jet Effect hypothesis is one of the most embarrassingly bad pieces of "scholarship" I have ever encountered and I was not surprised to hear that Alvarez, the author of this nonsense, was found out cheating his results.

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It looks like the main differences here to explain all JFK’s motion are just related to the models we have in place. You have a head bounce off the chest with no jet effect involved as the process, whereas my assumptions are different.  Beyond that many of the observations are similar.

Agreed.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 09:19:13 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2022, 09:16:35 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2022, 09:21:57 AM »
The Nicholas Nalli study----
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844017331882#bbr0060
This statement........strikes me as rather verbose. What was different about 'that era'? The Dark Ages?
 Mr Nalli makes a statement that is not universally accepted but with which I agree---I have postulated that this just might be because there were two separate strikes to the head. One from behind and one from the right front where many in attendance claim.
Harold Weisberg also thought this...http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/DeSalles%20Doug%20Jr/Item%2001.pdf
This would agree with earwitness accounts that at that moment the sound was a babam report. Localizing origins would have been astronomical.
Dan Rather viewed a private showing of the Zapruder film shortly after the event. He described it...A deliberate lie.
I also read thru... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/
Mr Nalli may know about physics/arithmetic but I don't think he really knows very much about the assassination.

"I have postulated that this just might be because there were two separate strikes to the head."


What was it that led you to postulate this?

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2022, 05:06:50 PM »
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Again. I just have to totally disagree with this analysis.

I understand your disagreement and concern but based on what I have found I unfortunately totally disagree with you and definitely believe there was significant residual stiffening of JFK through z312, I think he moved very little (while all others in limo moved around some) before z312. But his whole body doesn’t remain in the EXACT same position from frame z226 onward, I don’t claim that.

Also based on how the modeling reacted from z312 to z313, I believe there was some component of jet effect manifesting itself there, but the neck stiffness could still play a role up to z316, and additionally the back brace played a role continually through z324 providing the uniform upper torso sinusoidal motion. It also was primarily responsible for the torso reversal backward -> forward around z319, and not because of his upper torso slamming into the back seat reversing his motion but because of a rearward deflection of the back brace creating a restoring force at that point from its neutral position that I described it had settled into before z312. The actual upper torso horizontal displacements were not that great, just over an inch or so. To what do you attribute the reversal at z319, is it a slamming of the upper torso into the back seat and reversing its motion again in a nearly perfect sinusoidal motion that had started and continued since z312, or something else?

As to the Jet effect, I don’t know that much about Alvarez, so I don’t want to comment on his motives. I do believe he could have done a better job explaining the jet effect, the complexity of it and how it is sometimes difficult to demonstrate head reversal in tests (especially in tests where there was no additional restoring force like an stiff/elastic neck attached). If the big debate at the time was if the jet effect was real or even possible, perhaps he was focused on only showing a jet effect was theoretically possible, but I think more explanation would have been appropriate. Did the two video examples of the basics of jet effect in my presentation give you any thoughts that some level of jet can happen, or did it tend to reinforce your thoughts that jet effect can not happen? Reference on this was in slide 7, video time 0:13:39 of the video I had made.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 05:08:53 PM by Brian Roselle »

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2022, 05:06:50 PM »


Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: A new perspective on “Back and to the Left” in the Z-film
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2022, 05:59:44 PM »

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The Nicholas Nalli study----

 Mr Nalli makes a statement that is not universally accepted but with which I agree---I have postulated that this just might be because there were two separate strikes to the head. One from behind and one from the right front where many in attendance claim.
Harold Weisberg also thought this...http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/DeSalles%20Doug%20Jr/Item%2001.pdf

I have heard of the theory of two back to back strikes to the head where the first strike drives the head forward and the next strike immediately after drives the head backwards. What concerned me about this is that the first rear shot initiated a noticeable forward movement in the upper torso as well, but if there was a following significant shot from the front at z313 it had no effect on the torso's movement trajectory as the upper torso kept smoothly moving forward until just before z315 where it reversed in a sine wave fashion.


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This would agree with earwitness accounts that at that moment the sound was a babam report. Localizing origins would have been astronomical.

This sounds like the kind of thing Charles has been looking into with regards to a shock wave.

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After the final shot, the presidents head slumped forward.
A deliberate lie.
I also read thru... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/
Mr Nalli may know about physics/arithmetic but I don't think he really knows very much about the assassination.

Was Dan Rather talking about what he remembered seeing at z312 or z321? In both cases the head moves forward. If he only viewed the film once, I find it hard to believe he would have picked up on the forward motion from z312 to z313, but I don't know.


I think Nick Nalli was trying to do the most comprehensive effort to date to technically describe the dynamics of the head shot. I haven't seen a more in-depth technical review yet, but maybe there is one out there somewhere.