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Author Topic: Are these two photos legit?  (Read 18284 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2022, 07:56:03 PM »
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Hi Charles, @2:59 in the following YT video which was broadcast later that day and for some reason is "age restricted"? we see footage that Alyea filmed on the 6th floor and even though half of the footage is barely watchable, WFAATV obviously being desperate to broadcast whatever they could showed Alyea's film to what appears through to it's very end and I see Oswald's murder weapon, people standing around, a stairway direction sign, a detective holding a bottle but I don't see any close-ups of Fritz holding shells?


EDIT I was thinking back to footage of Day removing the rifle from the floor and it's not in the footage above. So after a quick search, on DVP's YT video site I found some additional Alyea footage but still no close up of Carcano hulls. It's interesting that WFAATV didn't initially show the more news worthy footage of the rifle being recovered and instead gave us a stack of flickering images?


JohnM

Thanks John, yes it does seem like if they had footage of the shells in a close-up that they would have wanted to broadcast it ASAP.

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2022, 07:56:03 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2022, 07:58:28 PM »
You stated earlier that there are no photos of the shell casings before anyone moved them. So, it appears that you believe that the shells were removed, then later staged for photographs? Is this what you are suggesting?

Fritz picked up the shell casings before Day and Studebaker arrived.
It is a necessary conclusion that any photos taken by Day or Studebaker of the shell casings do not show them in their original positions.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2022, 03:28:10 AM »
Fritz picked up the shell casings before Day and Studebaker arrived.
It is a necessary conclusion that any photos taken by Day or Studebaker of the shell casings do not show them in their original positions.


I have a difficult time taking Alyea’s accounts seriously. Here’s a small part of what Allyea reportedly had to say in the corrections section of this webpage concerning Connie’s book:


Over thirty minutes later, after the rifle was discovered and the crime lab
arrived, Capt. Fritz reached into his pocket and handed the casings to
Det. Studebaker to include in the photographs he would take of the
sniper's nest crime scene. We stayed at the rifle site to watch Lt. Day
dust the rifle. You have seen my footage of this. Studebaker never saw
the original placement of the casings so he tossed them on the floor and
photographed them. Det. Studebaker was alone at this site until after
Lt. Day left the building with the rifle. We in the search team went to
the sniper's site. Studebaker had already photographed the casings on
the floor and was busy dusting the pop bottle when we arrived. The
casings were no longer on the floor. I never saw them again.



The shadows on CE 511 indicate that it was taken near the time of 1:20 pm. Not over thirty minutes later.


Mooney’s account has no credible person to back it up, as far as I am concerned. And it conflicts with the accounts of the other officers. I cannot believe that Fritz could have done that and no one else besides Mooney saw it.

You can believe that nonsense if you want to. But don’t expect me to.

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2022, 03:28:10 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2022, 03:54:21 AM »

I have a difficult time taking Alyea’s accounts seriously. Here’s a small part of what Allyea reportedly had to say in the corrections section of this webpage concerning Connie’s book:


Over thirty minutes later, after the rifle was discovered and the crime lab
arrived, Capt. Fritz reached into his pocket and handed the casings to
Det. Studebaker to include in the photographs he would take of the
sniper's nest crime scene. We stayed at the rifle site to watch Lt. Day
dust the rifle. You have seen my footage of this. Studebaker never saw
the original placement of the casings so he tossed them on the floor and
photographed them. Det. Studebaker was alone at this site until after
Lt. Day left the building with the rifle. We in the search team went to
the sniper's site. Studebaker had already photographed the casings on
the floor and was busy dusting the pop bottle when we arrived. The
casings were no longer on the floor. I never saw them again.



The shadows on CE 511 indicate that it was taken near the time of 1:20 pm. Not over thirty minutes later.


Mooney’s account has no credible person to back it up, as far as I am concerned. And it conflicts with the accounts of the other officers. I cannot believe that Fritz could have done that and no one else besides Mooney saw it.

You can believe that nonsense if you want to. But don’t expect me to.

Mooney is a credible person and his first-hand eye-witness testimony is independently corroborated by Alyea. A large part of the credibility of both is that they are not Fritz's men and would feel no obligation to cover for his actions.
As I've said, you have no problem with Fritz doing exactly the same thing with the live round.
You have no problem with the Sniper's Perch being re-staged.
You have no problem that other key evidence such as the rifle "bag" and BRW's lunch remains were not photographed in their original positions.
And who are these other officers with conflicting accounts? Remember, only Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Mooney and Alyea are present when it happens, so who are these credible officers you put so much faith in?

Out of interest, what shadows in CE 511 are you using to gauge the time?

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2022, 01:52:08 PM »
Mooney is a credible person and his first-hand eye-witness testimony is independently corroborated by Alyea. A large part of the credibility of both is that they are not Fritz's men and would feel no obligation to cover for his actions.
As I've said, you have no problem with Fritz doing exactly the same thing with the live round.
You have no problem with the Sniper's Perch being re-staged.
You have no problem that other key evidence such as the rifle "bag" and BRW's lunch remains were not photographed in their original positions.
And who are these other officers with conflicting accounts? Remember, only Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Mooney and Alyea are present when it happens, so who are these credible officers you put so much faith in?

Out of interest, what shadows in CE 511 are you using to gauge the time?



Mooney is a credible person and his first-hand eye-witness testimony is independently corroborated by Alyea. A large part of the credibility of both is that they are not Fritz's men and would feel no obligation to cover for his actions.

Mooney’s account is at odds with others in several aspects. One of the more glaring is that he claims to have stuck his head out of the sniper’s window and hollered and saw Fritz on the ground below. The problem is that by all other accounts Fritz was on the seventh floor at this time. Alyea’s statement in December of 1963 contains none of the numerous fantasies that he has come up with in more recent years. If his 1963 account contained Fritz picking up the shells and showing them for a camera close-up, or there was any evidence that such a close-up was actually filmed, then you might have some corroboration for Mooney’s claim.


As I've said, you have no problem with Fritz doing exactly the same thing with the live round.

Day testified that he was the one who picked the live round up, dusted it for fingerprints, initialed it, and then turned it over to Fritz. Where do you get the idea that Fritz picked it up?


You have no problem with the Sniper's Perch being re-staged

I don’t know all the reasons why they might have wanted to reconstruct the positions of some of the boxes. But I could guess at a few reasons. And they didn’t try to hide the fact that they did. I see nothing sinister about it.


You have no problem that other key evidence such as the rifle "bag" and BRW's lunch remains were not photographed in their original positions.

Studebaker had less than two-months experience in that department. And given all the other circumstances, it is understandable how he could have missed taking enough photos. Just exactly where do you believe the original position of BRW’s lunch remains were?


And who are these other officers with conflicting accounts? Remember, only Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Mooney and Alyea are present when it happens, so who are these credible officers you put so much faith in?

There were many officers on the sixth floor when the evidence was found.  Clyde A. Haywood, E.D. Brewer, Marvin Johnson, to name a few. Do you believe Fritz erected a Star Wars type of cloaking shield to prevent anyone else on that floor from seeing them? Gerald Hill was there when the shells were found. He was actually photographed with his head out a window hollering for the crime scene investigators. (No one apparently photographed or reported Mooney’s claim to doing this.   ???) Hill left the sixth floor before Fritz got there. But Hill’s account (to that point in time) differs from Mooney’s in several aspects. Mooney’s account of where the chicken bones were found differs from every other account that I have seen. You can put your faith in Mooney, but I cannot do the same.


Out of interest, what shadows in CE 511 are you using to gauge the time?

The shadows are more readily apparent in a copy of the photo on page 525 of “Pictures of the Pain” by Richard B. Trask. By the way, this photo is also full frame, and shows the third shell near the bottom. The shadows are cast by the post that divides the two windows and the window sill of the sniper’s nest window onto the brick ledge just inside the window. The angle between these two shadows changes with the time much like a sundial.

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2022, 01:52:08 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2022, 07:55:59 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2022, 08:31:33 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2022, 06:57:59 AM »


Mooney is a credible person and his first-hand eye-witness testimony is independently corroborated by Alyea. A large part of the credibility of both is that they are not Fritz's men and would feel no obligation to cover for his actions.

Mooney’s account is at odds with others in several aspects. One of the more glaring is that he claims to have stuck his head out of the sniper’s window and hollered and saw Fritz on the ground below. The problem is that by all other accounts Fritz was on the seventh floor at this time. Alyea’s statement in December of 1963 contains none of the numerous fantasies that he has come up with in more recent years. If his 1963 account contained Fritz picking up the shells and showing them for a camera close-up, or there was any evidence that such a close-up was actually filmed, then you might have some corroboration for Mooney’s claim.


As I've said, you have no problem with Fritz doing exactly the same thing with the live round.

Day testified that he was the one who picked the live round up, dusted it for fingerprints, initialed it, and then turned it over to Fritz. Where do you get the idea that Fritz picked it up?


You have no problem with the Sniper's Perch being re-staged

I don’t know all the reasons why they might have wanted to reconstruct the positions of some of the boxes. But I could guess at a few reasons. And they didn’t try to hide the fact that they did. I see nothing sinister about it.


You have no problem that other key evidence such as the rifle "bag" and BRW's lunch remains were not photographed in their original positions.

Studebaker had less than two-months experience in that department. And given all the other circumstances, it is understandable how he could have missed taking enough photos. Just exactly where do you believe the original position of BRW’s lunch remains were?


And who are these other officers with conflicting accounts? Remember, only Fritz, Sims, Boyd, Mooney and Alyea are present when it happens, so who are these credible officers you put so much faith in?

There were many officers on the sixth floor when the evidence was found.  Clyde A. Haywood, E.D. Brewer, Marvin Johnson, to name a few. Do you believe Fritz erected a Star Wars type of cloaking shield to prevent anyone else on that floor from seeing them? Gerald Hill was there when the shells were found. He was actually photographed with his head out a window hollering for the crime scene investigators. (No one apparently photographed or reported Mooney’s claim to doing this.   ???) Hill left the sixth floor before Fritz got there. But Hill’s account (to that point in time) differs from Mooney’s in several aspects. Mooney’s account of where the chicken bones were found differs from every other account that I have seen. You can put your faith in Mooney, but I cannot do the same.


Out of interest, what shadows in CE 511 are you using to gauge the time?

The shadows are more readily apparent in a copy of the photo on page 525 of “Pictures of the Pain” by Richard B. Trask. By the way, this photo is also full frame, and shows the third shell near the bottom. The shadows are cast by the post that divides the two windows and the window sill of the sniper’s nest window onto the brick ledge just inside the window. The angle between these two shadows changes with the time much like a sundial.

"Mooney’s account is at odds with others in several aspects. One of the more glaring is that he claims to have stuck his head out of the sniper’s window and hollered and saw Fritz on the ground below. The problem is that by all other accounts Fritz was on the seventh floor at this time."

So Mooney looks down from the sixth floor on a sea of heads and hats milling about and mistakes one of them for Fritz?
That's a "glaring" inconsistency in his testimony as far as you're concerned?
If that's the best you can come up with then it's a super-harsh threshold of accuracy you are holding witnesses to.
And we have very different ideas about what constitutes a "glaring inconsistency".
For example - In Day's testimony he states:

Mr. Day: ...I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me to come to the northwest part of the building, the rifle had been found, and he wanted photographs.
Mr. Belin: All right. You have mentioned these three hulls. Did you put any initials on those at all, any means of identification?
Mr. Day: At that time they were placed in an envelope and the envelope marked. The three hulls were not marked at that time. Mr. Sims took possession of them.


For some strange reason Day has Sims pick up the shells, puts them in an envelope (that is never sealed) and Sims takes possession of the shells. Neither man marks the shells at that time destroying the chain of evidence. But Sims has a very different recollection of who took possession of the shells:

Mr. Ball: Who picked up the hulls?
Mr. Sims: Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.
Mr. Ball: There were three hulls?
Mr. Sims:Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?
Mr. Sims: He had an envelope.
Mr. Ball: Did he take charge of the hulls there?
Mr. Sims: I don't know.


Sims remembers picking the shells up and putting them in the envelope but he doesn't know who takes charge of the shells. Ball tries to clarify the situation:

Mr. Ball: Did he take them in his possession, I mean?
Mr. Sims: I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or not.


There can be no doubt, Sims doesn't have a clue who took possession of the shells. Even though Day testifies that it is Sims who takes the shells into his possession. Ball gives it one last try:

Mr. Ball: But you helped him pick them up?
Mr. Sims: I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there and he held the envelope open.
Mr. Ball: You didn't take them in your possession, did you?
Mr. Sims: No, sir; I don't believe I did.


Sims distinctly remembers picking up the shells, an absolutely key piece of evidence, but doesn't have a clue who took possession of them.
Now that is a glaring contradiction!
But the best is yet to come.
After his testimony, Fritz tells Sims to get his arse back in front of the commission to tell them he now remembers taking possession of the shells. I wish there were time and space here to get into Sims' "resumed testimony" as it is the funniest testimony there is and reveals a man desperately trying not to f%ck up the agreed story and failing miserably.
Sims remembers that during his testimony he wasn't sure who brought the shells down to City Hall, but he was never asked who brought the shells down to City Hall. The key point of the testimony is this:

Mr. Belin: Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on Monday?
Mr. Sims: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin: What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?
Mr. Sims: I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I talked to him.
Mr. Belin: What did he say?
Mr. Sims: He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and bring them to the office."
And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told me this.
Mr. Belin: In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls?


So Sims didn't have a clue who took possession of the shells until Fritz told him he did. Classic stuff.
Mooney not recognising the top of Fritz's hat from the 6th floor is solid proof he is lying but this baloney is perfectly acceptable.

"Day testified that he was the one who picked the live round up, dusted it for fingerprints, initialed it, and then turned it over to Fritz. Where do you get the idea that Fritz picked it up?"


The point I was making wasn't about who picked it up, it was about Fritz pocketing the live round, a truly extraordinary thing to do. This seasoned detective then neglects to mark the live round, thus destroying the chain of evidence (this is becoming a regular theme).

"Just exactly where do you believe the original position of BRW’s lunch remains were?"

I put BRW's lunch remains where Mooney, Hill, Haygood, Brewer, McCurley, Weatherford and Montgomery place them - in the southeast corner of the 6th floor.
And not where they were photographed, about 30ft away on a little trolley.
I find it very interesting that Bonnie Ray Williams describes having his lunch as it is in the crime scene photos when every officer who saw the scene before Fritz got there describes the lunch remains being in the southeast corner.
More glaring contradictions.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2022, 06:58:53 AM by Dan O'meara »