Perception of Reality

[Dan O'meara]

From Adams’ viewpoint, JFK disappeared behind the tree around z133. She couldn’t even see the occupants during the time period you claim this happened. How could she possibly describe something that she didn’t see? She is describing the actions that happened right in front of her and her building, and before they went behind the tree. It couldn’t possibly be any other way. Many, many people along the motorcade route thought that they looked “right at them” and waved to acknowledge them. In reality they smiled and waved hundreds of times throughout the parade. What is significant to me is that most of the occupants of the limo stopped smiling and waving for a short period and almost simultaneously jerked their heads right to left and back to the right in between the two waves we are discussing. It is apparent to me that they heard the first shot and quickly looked around. Nothing looked out of place (the shot missed). So, being “on stage” so to speak, they quickly resumed waving and smiling. Then the next shot happened…

"From Adams’ viewpoint, JFK disappeared behind the tree around z133. She couldn’t even see the occupants during the time period you claim this happened. How could she possibly describe something that she didn’t see?"

 
And here we have it - the witness doesn't agree with your preconceived idea therefore the witness is wrong!!
Truly unbelievable.
According to your Perception of Reality outside the TSBD there is a massive green sphere that no-one can see through (as shown in the Roberdeau Map).
According to you Adams couldn't have seen what she testified to seeing because the massive green sphere obscured her view. 

"She is describing the actions that happened right in front of her and her building, and before they went behind the tree. It couldn’t possibly be any other way."

Why couldn't it possibly be any other way?
Because you say so??
You should allow Adams' testimony to inform you about what she could see - that both JFK and Jackie turned to face the TSBD
But no...you are right therefore the witness is wrong.
Adams could see JFK and Jackie both turn to face the TSBD (@ z190) because she could see through the branches of the tree - because it's a tree and not a massive green sphere. You have zero idea about what Adams could see so you should accept her testimony and alter your opinion accordingly.
The power of Adams testimony is that it corroborates Woodwards testimony and is confirmed by the Z-Film - nowhere else do both JFK and Jackie turn to face directly to their right other than around z190 - you cannot get away from this so you call the witness a liar.

"So, being “on stage” so to speak, they quickly resumed waving and smiling. Then the next shot happened…"

Being on stage??
 
You are in a desperate situation. The evidence proves your theory wrong but you can't accept that. You drone on about how you "follow the evidence" but you don't...you deny the evidence when it doesn't agree with you.

Perception of Reality?
What Perception of Reality?

[Dan O'meara]

So Woodward (in the Z190s) could see Mrs. Kennedy's face through her husband's head? Kind of like how Hickey can see through the P{resident's head to see the right-side hair flutter in Z270s. The only place Woodward would have seen the faces of both Kennedys was just before before Zapruder started filming. Then Woodward said she heard the first shot and then saw the Kennedys look around, which they do starting in the Z160s and Z170s.

Where does the Kennedys looking around occur after the Z190s? Where are the Kennedys' heads not already turned rightward after the Z190s to early-Z220s, when the President's head turns to the front (because he's just been shot through the neck)?

This is before the Zapruder film starts. Then the film starts and about the late-Z150s Woodward hears the first shot.

But Jackie faces the Woodward group earlier, when she is actually visible to the Woodward group.

I don't think Woodward's group waited until the President was practically passed them before shouting out. They were pretty excited to see the Kennedys and would have shouted out before Z133. I think the Kennedys happened to look their way and Woodward assumed her group's shouts had caused that, as if the Kennedys could have heard anything over the motorcycles starting to accelerate from the corner and the general crowd noise.

Maybe because the Woodward group's hand movements caught the President's attention earlier (pre-Z133) and he calmly looked their way in the Z190s as a brief acknowledgement. Just one person in the Woodward group is clapping her hands. There's no waving towards the car. The President's hand is raised but not waving. There are others along the sidewalk he wants to make contact with.

So Woodward (in the Z190s) could see Mrs. Kennedy's face through her husband's head?

Qualify this incredibly stupid point.
I guarantee you that if you take even a cursory look at the Z-Film you will find that around z190 JFK and Jackie are looking to their right - directly towards Woodward and her group.

The only place Woodward would have seen the faces of both Kennedys was just before before Zapruder started filming.


You are completely wrong about this (and I think you know you are).
You are the master of graphics so why not rustle up something that demonstrates your point.
The problem that you will have with that is the Towner film, which shows Jackie looking off to her right all the way round the turn.
There is no point in the video record of Dealey Plaza that shows BOTH Jackie and JFK looking directly to their right before around z190. You will never be able to demonstrate otherwise and you should accept this.
The Towner film shows us what was happening before Zapruder started filming and it shows us Jackie looking off to her left so Woodward and friends could not have seen "the faces of both Kennedys ", as you incorrectly claim.

Both you and Charles are now in the position where you have to deny the video evidence in order to prop up your long defunct theories.
The accounts of Woodward and Adams corroborate each other and are corroborated by the Z-Film. You should accept this.

[Charles Collins]

"From Adams’ viewpoint, JFK disappeared behind the tree around z133. She couldn’t even see the occupants during the time period you claim this happened. How could she possibly describe something that she didn’t see?"

 
And here we have it - the witness doesn't agree with your preconceived idea therefore the witness is wrong!!
Truly unbelievable.
According to your Perception of Reality outside the TSBD there is a massive green sphere that no-one can see through (as shown in the Roberdeau Map).
According to you Adams couldn't have seen what she testified to seeing because the massive green sphere obscured her view. 

"She is describing the actions that happened right in front of her and her building, and before they went behind the tree. It couldn’t possibly be any other way."

Why couldn't it possibly be any other way?
Because you say so??
You should allow Adams' testimony to inform you about what she could see - that both JFK and Jackie turned to face the TSBD
But no...you are right therefore the witness is wrong.
Adams could see JFK and Jackie both turn to face the TSBD (@ z190) because she could see through the branches of the tree - because it's a tree and not a massive green sphere. You have zero idea about what Adams could see so you should accept her testimony and alter your opinion accordingly.
The power of Adams testimony is that it corroborates Woodwards testimony and is confirmed by the Z-Film - nowhere else do both JFK and Jackie turn to face directly to their right other than around z190 - you cannot get away from this so you call the witness a liar.

"So, being “on stage” so to speak, they quickly resumed waving and smiling. Then the next shot happened…"

Being on stage??
 
You are in a desperate situation. The evidence proves your theory wrong but you can't accept that. You drone on about how you "follow the evidence" but you don't...you deny the evidence when it doesn't agree with you.

Perception of Reality?
What Perception of Reality?

Why couldn't it possibly be any other way?
Because you say so??

Because Adams says so:

Belin: Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?
Miss Adams: I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.
Belin: Where was their car as you got this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember.
Miss Adams: I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.


You should allow Adams' testimony to inform you about what she could see - that both JFK and Jackie turned to face the TSBD
But no...you are right therefore the witness is wrong

I just showed you what Adams said. You are the one who needs to listen to reason instead of assuming that you are right and everyone else is wrong.


Adams could see JFK and Jackie both turn to face the TSBD (@ z190) because she could see through the branches of the tree…

I have already shown you that Adams said (under oath) that she saw this prior to JFK going behind the tree. Here’s some more testimony that you need to read and understand:

Miss Adams: And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President’s wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract women’s attention. Then we heard—then we were obstructed from the view. Belin: By what? Miss Adams: A tree, and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.[\i]


You have zero idea about what Adams could see so you should accept her testimony and alter your opinion accordingly.

I have her statement that her view was obstructed by the tree. And that she saw them look her way before the tree obstructed her view. You need to look in the mirror and repeat your above advice (to yourself this time).


The power of Adams testimony is that it corroborates Woodwards testimony and is confirmed by the Z-Film - nowhere else do both JFK and Jackie turn to face directly to their right other than around z190 - you cannot get away from this so you call the witness a liar.

This happened just before Zapruder began filming that segment. The end of the Towner film segment shows it. There is a brief period between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder segment. Just because you don’t think it can be seen in the Zapruder film doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Adams swears that it happened just before they went behind the tree. I believe her. You keep saying that I claim that Adams is wrong and a liar. No I haven’t, you keep jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions (about many things).

[Dan O'meara]

Why couldn't it possibly be any other way?
Because you say so??

Because Adams says so:

Belin: Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?
Miss Adams: I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.
Belin: Where was their car as you got this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember.
Miss Adams: I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.


You should allow Adams' testimony to inform you about what she could see - that both JFK and Jackie turned to face the TSBD
But no...you are right therefore the witness is wrong

I just showed you what Adams said. You are the one who needs to listen to reason instead of assuming that you are right and everyone else is wrong.


Adams could see JFK and Jackie both turn to face the TSBD (@ z190) because she could see through the branches of the tree…

I have already shown you that Adams said (under oath) that she saw this prior to JFK going behind the tree. Here’s some more testimony that you need to read and understand:

Miss Adams: And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President’s wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract women’s attention. Then we heard—then we were obstructed from the view. Belin: By what? Miss Adams: A tree, and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.[\i]


You have zero idea about what Adams could see so you should accept her testimony and alter your opinion accordingly.

I have her statement that her view was obstructed by the tree. And that she saw them look her way before the tree obstructed her view. You need to look in the mirror and repeat your above advice (to yourself this time).


The power of Adams testimony is that it corroborates Woodwards testimony and is confirmed by the Z-Film - nowhere else do both JFK and Jackie turn to face directly to their right other than around z190 - you cannot get away from this so you call the witness a liar.

This happened just before Zapruder began filming that segment. The end of the Towner film segment shows it. There is a brief period between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder segment. Just because you don’t think it can be seen in the Zapruder film doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Adams swears that it happened just before they went behind the tree. I believe her. You keep saying that I claim that Adams is wrong and a liar. No I haven’t, you keep jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions (about many things).

Wow!

So. in a nutshell, you are saying that in the period of time between the end of the Towner film and the beginning of the Z-Film (frame z133), that JFK and Jackie face towards the TSBD?
Is that correct?
If not, please show in the video record where both Jackie and JFK face towards the TSBD.

[Dan O'meara]

Sure looks like the President's head would obscure Mrs. Kennedy's face to Woodward in the Z190s.

The question is the line-of-sight between Woodward and Mrs. Kennedy's face, with the President's head in between. And Kennedy could see clear down to Jean Newman. His raised right hand is not in the way. The President's raised right hand obscures his face to Zapruder, but Zapruder has a different line-of-sight than Jean Newman.


Jackie seems to have turned her face forward enough for Woodward's group to see.

I don't think Woodward says Mrs. Kennedy turned her head sharply to the right prior to the first shot.

    "Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second
     or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs.
     Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her."

    "But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and
     waved, directly at us, it seemed."

I don't see where Mrs. Kennedy literally waved to anyone during the Towner or Zapruder films, so Woodward may be exaggerating on that point.

While we're at it, where does the President face forward after acknowledging the Woodward group?

    "After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again."

Can't be after the Z190s, because the President faces rightward until being shot in the Z220s. The President does face forward in the Z130s, which would be after Woodward thought he had "acknowledged" her group's cheers. The first shot then followed. If this happened in the late-Z150s, it could have caused the rapid rightward head-turns of the Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy. They all begin to turn their heads a second or so before the Z190s. The President turned his head rightward, too. Woodward said the Kennedys looked around after hearing the first shot.

I'm confused Jerry.
Please point out the moment where both JFK and Jackie are looking "directly" towards Woodward and friends.
In the Towner frames you posted JFK and Jackie are looking in completely different directions so we know it's not at that point.
Woodward also states that it was " just as [JFK and Jackie] went by, they turned and waved".
JUST AS THEY WENT BY!
This is not the z130's as you would have it.

Also, when JFK is shot he is facing forward, you have a copy of the Z-Film so you know this is true.

Also again, you like to use the Connally's head movement a lot to indicate something or other, but both John and Nellie insist JFK was hit by the first shot - yet more support for a first shot at z223.

[Andrew Mason]

Sure looks like the President's head would obscure Mrs. Kennedy's face to Woodward in the Z190s.

You can't be serious! The car is moving 1 foot per frame. Even if you think that a person standing on the sidewalk could not see over JFK's head (highly doubtful), his head would block Jackie for less than 55 ms.

While we're at it, where does the President face forward after acknowledging the Woodward group?

Talk about confirmation bias! You cannot see JFK when he is behind the Stemmons sign. We cannot conclude from the photographic evidence exactly where he is facing after z193. He appears to be turning forward after z193. Although Willis appears to show his head turned somewhat to the right at z202, according to Willis the first shot had just occurred  So that position could be an initial reaction. Or it could be a continuation of a forward turn begun a few frames earlier.

[Charles Collins]

Wow!

So. in a nutshell, you are saying that in the period of time between the end of the Towner film and the beginning of the Z-Film (frame z133), that JFK and Jackie face towards the TSBD?
Is that correct?
If not, please show in the video record where both Jackie and JFK face towards the TSBD.

No I am not saying that. And my opinion is that the JFK wave that can be seen near the end of the Tower film segment is what Adams was describing. It is possible that Jackie turned her head between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder film segment. But I am not claiming that she actually did, just throwing out the idea that it is possible. Regardless of whether or not Jackie did that, Adams was certainly not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree. She explicitly says that it was prior to that point in time.