Oswald: No power lunch

[Walt Cakebread]

"...any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation..."

Self preservation??
These are supposedly just guys being asked to recount what they saw and did around the time of the assassination. Where does "self preservation" come into it?

"That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?"

To get into the full scale of the lies these men tell would require a thread of its own but let's start with Bonnie Ray.
On the day of the assassination he is asked to recount what happened. This is a black man being questioned by the Dallas police in the early sixties. And he decides to tell an outright lie - that he went down after work, picked up his lunch and went back up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
This is an outright lie.
Not an oversight or a "misrememberance".
He is questioned the next day by the FBI (The FBI!!). He now remembers he went up to the 6th floor by himself but tells his next outright lie - that he was up there for about 3 minutes!
We now know that he was up there for at least 25 minutes.
His WC testimony reveals that the more BRW is questioned on this issue the longer he's up there:

"...when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m"

"I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12"

"Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe."

3 minutes, 5, 10 15, 20, and still he never gets to the actual time.
After being questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission he still won't tell the whole truth.

He also lies about where he has his lunch. At least 5 five witnesses state there was a half eaten piece of chicken in or on top of the SN but in his WC testimony BRW has himself sat between the third and fourth set of windows, some 30 ft away.

He even lies about having eaten all the chicken!!

Bonnie Ray lies constantly about being up on the 6th floor, how long he was up there and where he was sitting.
He is a young black man, in Dallas, in the early '60's, constantly lying to the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission.

We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.
The question is - if Oswald is the lone assassin and is dead before the weekend is out, why does Bonnie Ray carry on lying?
The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the assassin he encountered is very much alive and is a direct threat to him.

"...expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive."

You're right John, anyone who is expecting a photo perfect memory from any witness is definitely being naive.
But that's not is what's happening. Williams outright lies on the day of the assassination and is then involved in a continuous series of lies thereafter.

Imagining Williams is being forgetful is truly naive.

You da man , Dan.....

We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.

I hope you won't resent my disagreement, Dan....  But I don't believe BRW encountered any assassin ( however I'm not 100% sure about that.)  I believe BRW encountered a "deputy sheriff" or a "security guard"  (recall that Brennan said that the man with the rifle as wearing khaki colored clothing)    That "deputy Sheriff" with a rifle,  would be very intimidating to a young black man like BRW.  If that "Sheriff" told BRW to get his ass off the sixth floor and forget that he had seen the "sheriff's deputy"  there. You can bet that William's would have disappeared from the sixth floor like a snowflake in the Sahara.  And he would never ever tell anybody about what he had seen.

I sincerely do not believe any shots were fired from the sixth floor .....In spite of the fact that Howard Brennan said that he saw the Khaki clad man STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window.   There's little doubt that Brennan saw the man aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window..... In the excitement and mayhem of the shooting Brennan simply morphed a scene that he had seen a little earlier ( about the same time and place that Arnold Rowland saw the man with the rifle) The "security guard" who was dressed in khaki was using the scope on the rifle to see if his confederates were in place behind the stockade fence.

[Alan Ford]

Yes Alan, I do believe the shooter is Jack Dougherty.

Thank you, Mr O'Meara

[Alan Ford]

But I don't believe BRW encountered any assassin ( however I'm not 100% sure about that.)  I believe BRW encountered a "deputy sheriff" or a "security guard"  (recall that Brennan said that the man with the rifle as wearing khaki colored clothing)    That "deputy Sheriff" with a rifle,  would be very intimidating to a young black man like BRW.  If that "Sheriff" told BRW to get his ass off the sixth floor and forget that he had seen the "sheriff's deputy"  there.

I agree with the basic scenario here: the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort.

However, I believe Mr Williams was NOT the only innocent worker to be kept off the floor. This would not have been left to luck. The 'decision' of none of the other employees to choose 6 is both odd and telling.

As for what the credentials-flashing man/men said? Instead of something threatening that would be apt to lead Mr Williams (& co.!) to believe something nasty was afoot (thereby raising the risk of an alert being raised), it would more likely have been a simple official instruction.

It was only when the assassination happened that Mr Williams------------and any other employees who had been kept off the floor-------------will have realized with horror that that man or those guys up on 6 were NOT there to protect Pres. Kennedy.

And if Mr Williams and/or Co. talked about all this afterwards? Not a problem. There was no attempt by those behind the assassination to have this pinned on a lone gunman acting alone.

[Walt Cakebread]

I agree with the basic scenario here: the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort.

However, I believe Mr Williams was NOT the only innocent worker to be kept off the floor. This would not have been left to luck. The 'decision' of none of the other employees to choose 6 is both odd and telling.

As for what the credentials-flashing man/men said? Instead of something threatening that would be apt to lead Mr Williams (& co.!) to believe something nasty was afoot (thereby raising the risk of an alert being raised), it would more likely have been a simple official instruction.

It was only when the assassination happened that Mr Williams------------and any other employees who had been kept off the floor-------------will have realized with horror that that man or those guys up on 6 were NOT there to protect Pres. Kennedy.

And if Mr Williams and/or Co. talked about all this afterwards? Not a problem. There was no attempt by those behind the assassination to have this pinned on a lone gunman acting alone.

Mr Ford, we have a minor disagreement...We agree on this point...... "the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort. " The conspirators would not have allowed anybody onto the sixth floor. They knew that Lee was supposed to be playing the part of an attempted assassin by shooting at the President from the sixth floor.  So they surely would have barred anybody from that floor after 12:15....( about the time that BRW said that he left the sixth floor.)   So did the "Deputy Sheriff" encounter BRW there on the sixth floor and ordered him to leave the sixth floor?

What assurance would the "Deputy" have had that BRW wouldn't have told anybody about being ordered off the sixth floor?  IMO That "Deputy" would have had to have assurance that BRW wouldn't report that he had been ordered off the sixth floor and the "Deputy" had told him that nobody was allowed on the sixth floor.

Wouldn't the simple minded young kid have thought it odd that the deputy had chased him off of the sixth floor while allowing Lee Oswald onto the floor.      A question like this would surely have prompted BRW to ask questions.....Unless ....He was too frightened to ask the questions.   ( I don't believe that Lee was on the sixth floor at the time that JFK was murdered but the official story has always been that Lee Oswald shot JFK from the sixth floor window.)   

[Richard Smith]

Mr Ford, we have a minor disagreement...We agree on this point...... "the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort. " The conspirators would not have allowed anybody onto the sixth floor. They knew that Lee was supposed to be playing the part of an attempted assassin by shooting at the President from the sixth floor.  So they surely would have barred anybody from that floor after 12:15....( about the time that BRW said that he left the sixth floor.)   So did the "Deputy Sheriff" encounter BRW there on the sixth floor and ordered him to leave the sixth floor?

What assurance would the "Deputy" have had that BRW wouldn't have told anybody about being ordered off the sixth floor?  IMO That "Deputy" would have had to have assurance that BRW wouldn't report that he had been ordered off the sixth floor and the "Deputy" had told him that nobody was allowed on the sixth floor.

Wouldn't the simple minded young kid have thought it odd that the deputy had chased him off of the sixth floor while allowing Lee Oswald onto the floor.      A question like this would surely have prompted BRW to ask questions.....Unless ....He was too frightened to ask the questions.   ( I don't believe that Lee was on the sixth floor at the time that JFK was murdered but the official story has always been that Lee Oswald shot JFK from the sixth floor window.)   

So your fantasy conspirators entered the TSBD, took over the 6th floor, set up the scene to frame Oswald, excluded anyone from entering that floor, but then they allow Oswald to roam about the building in a public area where he could be seen by anyone!  HA HA HA.   Keep them coming. 

[Walt Cakebread]

So your fantasy conspirators entered the TSBD, took over the 6th floor, set up the scene to frame Oswald, excluded anyone from entering that floor, but then they allow Oswald to roam about the building in a public area where he could be seen by anyone!  HA HA HA.   Keep them coming.

they allow Oswald to roam about the building in a public area where he could be seen by anyone!

Psssst... Mr "Smith" Nobody saw Lee at the time JFK was passing the TSBD....

"They" weren't controlling Lee.... They allowed him to believe that this was his clever plot to infiltrate Cuba....Just as It was his plot to attempt to shoot Walker .....

Lee knew that if he was seen or photographed at a time in which he was allegedly shooting at JFK, he would be shot by Castro's firing squad if he managed to enter Cuba.   Thus he remained out of sight....  Or do you know of a confirmed sighting of Lee Oswald at the time that JFK was passing by the TSBD?

[Alan Ford]

Mr Ford, we have a minor disagreement...We agree on this point...... "the sixth floor was kept off bounds by a person or persons posing as law enforcement of some sort. " The conspirators would not have allowed anybody onto the sixth floor.

Yep----------------and the absence of ANY of the floor-laying crew on the sixth floor for the motorcade is the dog that didn't bark here. Just as the decision of Messrs Norman & Jarman to watch the P. Parade from FIVE rather than SIX was NOT a stroke of luck for whoever was on 6

They knew that Lee was supposed to be playing the part of an attempted assassin by shooting at the President from the sixth floor.

Mr Oswald may have been involved, or framed for involvement, but I see no evidence he was set up by the assassination conspirators as the actual shooter

So they surely would have barred anybody from that floor after 12:15....( about the time that BRW said that he left the sixth floor.)

More to the point: the time Mr Rowland saw two men on 6. The floor was commandeered by this point

So did the "Deputy Sheriff" encounter BRW there on the sixth floor and ordered him to leave the sixth floor?

What assurance would the "Deputy" have had that BRW wouldn't have told anybody about being ordered off the sixth floor?  IMO That "Deputy" would have had to have assurance that BRW wouldn't report that he had been ordered off the sixth floor and the "Deputy" had told him that nobody was allowed on the sixth floor.

Wouldn't the simple minded young kid have thought it odd that the deputy had chased him off of the sixth floor while allowing Lee Oswald onto the floor.

Mr Williams--------------even if he did get further than the stairway landing of 6---------------did not see Mr Oswald on 6. On this matter, Mr Oswald is an irrelevance!