DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy

[Chris Scally]

Hi Dan O'Meara:

From some notes I've uncovered here in my study tonight, I can tell you that the recordings used on that McAdams page are made from a cassette tape recording which was found in the Minneapolis Public Library many years ago by researcher Dave Dix. What I can tell you about it is that it almost certainly originated from a tape recording which originated from within the Dallas PD pre-1967. The tape recording was given to author Judy Bonner, who was at the time writing her book, “Investigation Of A Homicide”. In June 1969, Ms. Bonner’s tape was given to, or copied for, Dallas researcher Mary Ferrell, from whose tape most of those in the hands of early researchers until the early 1980's originated. Interestingly, examination of this version of the tape shows that it contains identical splice sounds (caused almost certainly, I believe, by shorter individual tapes being joined together in making the Bonner tape) to those on the recording found by Dave Dix - in other words, the Bonner/Ferrell tape unquestionably came from the same source as the one found by Dave Dix. As for the transcript, I know that Ms. Bonner included a transcript of the tape in her book, and the Channel 1 version attributed to Russ Shearer on the McAdams site appears to be a stripped-down version of the one in Judy Bonner's book. It is not, therefore, a verbatim transcript at all. The transcript in Ms. Bonner's book does not make any reference to the splices you mention, but the same splices are referenced in a different transcript of (presumably) the same recording which was subsequently made by Dallas researcher Arch Kimbrough around 1969.

You can therefore see from the foregoing just some of the difficulties that have been created over the years by transcripts - not all of which are verbatim - made by different people of what purports to be "the DPD radio recordings", but which are in fact copies - and usually copies that are many times removed - from the original Channel 1 dictabelt recordings. This cannot answer all of your questions, I'm afraid, but I hope it does explain why some very strange timing discrepancies can and do arise.

Sorry I cannot add much further at this time, but a detailed study of the recordings and transcripts is something to which I devoted a lot of time some years ago as I recovered from major heart surgery, but I'm essentially semi-retired at least from the research field now, and most of my old and rarely-accessed files are boxed up and stored off-site.

Chris.

 

[Chris Scally]

Hi Martin -

As far as I can remember, Jim Bowles' transcripts reflects what he estimates the time to be in many places, so the only accurate times are those which are spoken by the dispatchers themselves in the actual recordings based on whichever clocks they were looking at in the Dispatch office. 

[Dan O'meara]

Hi Dan O'Meara:

From some notes I've uncovered here in my study tonight, I can tell you that the recordings used on that McAdams page are made from a cassette tape recording which was found in the Minneapolis Public Library many years ago by researcher Dave Dix. What I can tell you about it is that it almost certainly originated from a tape recording which originated from within the Dallas PD pre-1967. The tape recording was given to author Judy Bonner, who was at the time writing her book, “Investigation Of A Homicide”. In June 1969, Ms. Bonner’s tape was given to, or copied for, Dallas researcher Mary Ferrell, from whose tape most of those in the hands of early researchers until the early 1980's originated. Interestingly, examination of this version of the tape shows that it contains identical splice sounds (caused almost certainly, I believe, by shorter individual tapes being joined together in making the Bonner tape) to those on the recording found by Dave Dix - in other words, the Bonner/Ferrell tape unquestionably came from the same source as the one found by Dave Dix. As for the transcript, I know that Ms. Bonner included a transcript of the tape in her book, and the Channel 1 version attributed to Russ Shearer on the McAdams site appears to be a stripped-down version of the one in Judy Bonner's book. It is not, therefore, a verbatim transcript at all. The transcript in Ms. Bonner's book does not make any reference to the splices you mention, but the same splices are referenced in a different transcript of (presumably) the same recording which was subsequently made by Dallas researcher Arch Kimbrough around 1969.

You can therefore see from the foregoing just some of the difficulties that have been created over the years by transcripts - not all of which are verbatim - made by different people of what purports to be "the DPD radio recordings", but which are in fact copies - and usually copies that are many times removed - from the original Channel 1 dictabelt recordings. This cannot answer all of your questions, I'm afraid, but I hope it does explain why some very strange timing discrepancies can and do arise.

Sorry I cannot add much further at this time, but a detailed study of the recordings and transcripts is something to which I devoted a lot of time some years ago as I recovered from major heart surgery, but I'm essentially semi-retired at least from the research field now, and most of my old and rarely-accessed files are boxed up and stored off-site.

Chris.

 

Genuinely amazing stuff Chris.
I got the impression, when I started looking into the tapes/transcripts, that I was staring into a very deep, dark hole and you seem to be confirming that.
From what you've said so far I'm coming away with the impression that the tapes and transcript are not as remotely solid as I thought they were and that serious discrepancies between "police time" and "real time" are more than a possibility. But I'm still struggling with something...
In the OP to this thread I believe I've made a convincing case for "police time" and "real time" being in synch around 12:30 PM. The discrepancy between the two "times" required to confirm the alternative timeline for the Tippit murder I mentioned, which interlocks a number of key witness testimonies, is around 6 minutes (maybe 5 at a pinch).
And this discrepancy has to be present 30 to 40 minutes after the synchronised point at 12:30 PM!
Is it realistic, in your opinion, that such a discrepancy could arise in such a short period of time? It seems to require something more substantial than a gradual divergence of the two "times".

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated and, once again, great stuff.

[PS: I love that you've got the word "Newbie" under your name. It's probably the most inappropriate thing on this forum ever!]

[Dan DAlimonte]

Hi Dan D'Alimonte -

OK, I recall the Secret Service transcript, made by SA Warner. Unfortunately, it is probably the worst, and most inaccurate, transcript that was produced. In fairness to the Secret Service, the transcript was made in Washington, and almost certainly by people who were totally unfamiliar with the geography of Dallas, and the terminology of the DPD. Also, we know that the first thing Agent Warner did was to copy the original dictabelts, after which he sent the copies (on an unknown medium) to Washington for transcription. Also, the transcript was produced in something of a hurry, so unfortunately the end result was what can only be described as chaotic, and very misleading.

Chris

Hey Chris thanks for responding but since I created this Dan 1 and Dan 2 situation I will be bumping my own thread
(hopefully tomprrow) and i'll respond there.  I do appreciate your input.  Thanks again.

[Charles Collins]

In another thread concerning the shooting of J D Tippit I’ve had to deal with a 6 minute discrepancy between “real time“ and the time being called out on the tapes. It wasn’t something I readily accepted and have examined the tapes for such a discrepancy.
I start with this quote by James C. Bowles, the DPD Communications Supervisor at the time:

“There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time."

This may be true on a second-to-second basis but it is most certainly not true on a minute-to-minute basis, as I will demonstrate.



The above picture is taken seconds after the assassination. The hertz clock can be clearly seen showing 12:30.
In his WC testimony, SA Greer states that in the immediate aftermath of the shooting SA Kellerman stated the time as 12:30
In his WC testimony Dave Powers confirms it was 12:30

Here we have three (I’m sure there are more) independent sources confirming the time of the assassination was 12:30 PM. Arguments about coincidence can be filed under “Tinfoil”.
Three independent sources agree that “real time” was 12:30 PM

When we look at the DPD tape transcripts we see that the very first call after the 12:30 time call is Chief Curry stating:

“Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.”

This is clearly a reference to the assassination.
Without doubt, this example confirms that “real time” can, indeed, be connected to “police time”. Channel 1 and Channel 2 cannot hear each other and are only connected by the Dispatcher. Once it has been established that “real time” and “police time” are in synch, it must now be established that Channel 1 and Channel 2 are in synch and this can only really be done by examining how the Dispatcher interacts with each channel.

This happens around 12:35 when Captain Souther orders - “have 283 cut the traffic at Hines and Industrial” on Channel 2. He immediately switches to Channel 1 and gives the same order.
Another clear example of such synchronisation between channels occurs at 12:45 PM. The Dispatcher broadcasts an almost identical message on each channel concerning a description of the potential assailant.
At this point (12:45 PM) I believe that the channels are synched with each other and with “real time” yet, within half an hour, there is supposed to be a 6 minute discrepancy. I didn’t believe such a discrepancy could occur gradually so looked for something more “catastrophic” in the transcripts...and found it.

At 12:54 PM Patrolman Chism asks for “a squad go to Community Blood Bank and pick up some blood and bring to Parkland, Code 3”. This is clearly a priority message. The Dispatcher asks if the Blood Bank has been notified and Chism confirms they have.
When we look to Channel 1 we should see the Dispatcher asking a squad to get to the Blood Bank, “Code 3” [sirens and lights]. Instead we see the Dispatcher having a joke with J D Tippit, asking him if he will be available for any emergency to which Tippit dryly answers “10-4”. It is Tippit’s last known message and it is quite well known this interaction is an in-joke between Tippit and Murray, the Dispatcher.
In fact, the request for a squad doesn’t occur for approximately 5 - 8 minutes:

Dispatcher - Code 3, the blood bank, 2000 Commerce. Take to Parkland

This message occurs in between the time calls 12:55 PM and 1:03 PM. It occurs a lot closer to the 1:03 time call and the gap of 5 - 8 minutes is given as an estimate.

Immediately after the “Blood Bank” message on Channel 2, Captain Souther, a senior officer, asks for the condition of JFK and whether Governor Connally has been hit. Again, this message is just after 12:54 PM. The response from the Dispatcher - “Have information that the governor was hit” - doesn’t come until 1:03 PM.
There is a nine minute section of radio silence on Channel 2 between this question and answer. There is something clearly wrong. So I looked for something that might account for this sudden, large discrepancy and noticed that on Channel 1, a few minutes before the Dispatcher calls for a squad to get to the Blood Bank, it states the “Tape spliced and duplicated at this point".
There is a similar splice just after 1:12 PM on Channel 1. I believe these splices have something to do with the large time discrepancy that occurs in the tapes. I’m hoping this thread will get to the bottom of it.
 
LATER EDIT =Just noticed another splice at 1:32

Jack Watson, the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office radio dispatcher, in his report to Sheriff Decker dated 11/22/63, states that immediately after he heard the shots:

“I looked at the time on the radio panel and it was about 40-seconds after 12:30 pm as I was calling the Dallas PD on the hot line...”


https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf


Also, earlier In the Sheriff’s documentation he provides the following description:

There had been no incidents during the entire route of the motorcade and we arrived at Elm Street at approximately 12 :31 PM . Mr . Lawson had just looked at his watch, stating it *as 12:31 PM and remarking that we would be approximately 5 minutes late in arriving at Market Hall.


It does appear to me that at the time of the assassination, the real time was reasonably close to the verbal times recorded on the DPD tapes. And I think that your own apparent opinion that, without any apparent reason otherwise, these verbal times should also be reasonably close to the real time 45-minutes later during the Tippit murder time period. Does this not suggest to you that the discrepancies must be in the details of the testimonies that seem to point to a six minute time difference???

[Dan O'meara]

Jack Watson, the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office radio dispatcher, in his report to Sheriff Decker dated 11/22/63, states that immediately after he heard the shots:

“I looked at the time on the radio panel and it was about 40-seconds after 12:30 pm as I was calling the Dallas PD on the hot line...”


https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf


Also, earlier In the Sheriff’s documentation he provides the following description:

There had been no incidents during the entire route of the motorcade and we arrived at Elm Street at approximately 12 :31 PM . Mr . Lawson had just looked at his watch, stating it *as 12:31 PM and remarking that we would be approximately 5 minutes late in arriving at Market Hall.


It does appear to me that at the time of the assassination, the real time was reasonably close to the verbal times recorded on the DPD tapes. And I think that your own apparent opinion that, without any apparent reason otherwise, these verbal times should also be reasonably close to the real time 45-minutes later during the Tippit murder time period. Does this not suggest to you that the discrepancies must be in the details of the testimonies that seem to point to a six minute time difference???

There is no way the timeline of the testimonies is worked out to the second but it's really tight as it is. The way the testimonies interlock don't leave much room for manoeuvre and certainly nothing like five or six minutes. The "official" timeline for the Tippit murder just doesn't work (IMO) without ignoring a lot of the key witness testimony.
I'd kind of given up on it as I know next to nothing about this aspect of the case. Then Chris came along and I get the impression this is the guy who could shed some light on this situation.
If he says it's a non-starter as far as the discrepancy is concerned it's back to the drawing board.
But I'm not at the point where I can dismiss any possibility.

[Charles Collins]

There is no way the timeline of the testimonies is worked out to the second but it's really tight as it is. The way the testimonies interlock don't leave much room for manoeuvre and certainly nothing like five or six minutes. The "official" timeline for the Tippit murder just doesn't work (IMO) without ignoring a lot of the key witness testimony.
I'd kind of given up on it as I know next to nothing about this aspect of the case. Then Chris came along and I get the impression this is the guy who could shed some light on this situation.
If he says it's a non-starter as far as the discrepancy is concerned it's back to the drawing board.
But I'm not at the point where I can dismiss any possibility.

The "official" timeline for the Tippit murder just doesn't work (IMO) without ignoring a lot of the key witness testimony.


To me, it isn’t considered ignoring if it is in fact considered, and then decided that it must be in error.