Et tu, Bonnie?

[Dan O'meara]

The catch is that Oswald denied bringing curtain rods to work that day and told Buell that he was going to buy his lunch and meantime the 34.8" broken-down Carcano will fit nicely into the 38" bag that was so obviously constructed specifically for said rifle thank you very much.

"...that was so obviously constructed specifically for said rifle.."

My analysis of the construction of the bag strongly indicates it is specifically constructed to carry an object 27" or less.
If it was designed for a longer object the seam of the bag would have been reinforced with tape all the way to the open end of the bag.
Obviously, you have no intention of tackling that analysis which would be beneath you as I am still a novice.

Have a little think about why Oswald would have the rifle disassembled - it doesn't really make the package that much more inconspicuous, it will take time to reassemble and, I'm assuming, the accuracy of the rifle is affected by disassembling and reassembling.
There is no upside to having it disassembled in the bag.

If Oswald took the rifle to work with him that morning he didn't take it in CE 142
If he took CE 142 with him that morning, he didn't take the rifle.

Forget a disassembled rifle in a bag designed for something much shorter.
By the same token, it's not impossible.

[Dan O'meara]

It's ok I found this myself. You obviously had more important posts to reply to. Is it what you were referring to?



Not much detail about how the 2 inches of open end secure the stock from poking through. Nice cartoon though, always good for a laugh.

Why didn't Frazier hear all the metal pieces jangling around in the bag?

[Dan O'meara]

I have felt for some time a better understanding of the movements of the freight elevators in the Texas Schoolbook Depository may provide insight into the events that took place in the hour or so before and immediately after the shots were fired in Dealey Plaza. This article is an attempt to reconstruct their known (and inferred) movements as much as possible from Warren Commission testimonies, Commission Document 5 (the FBI Gemberling report), Commission Document 87 (Secret Service Report) and the HSCA interviews of employees Harold Norman and Junior Jarman.
 
Texas Schoolbook Depository Essentials
 
The TSBD had three operational elevators  on November 22 1963. An enclosed passenger elevator operated between floors one and four and was located in the SE corner. This lift was most commonly used by office staff from the publishing company offices that were housed on floors two, three and four. In addition a pair of freight elevators were located “back to back” in the NW corner of the building, along the north wall, just east of the enclosed staircase. Unlike the passenger elevator, these operated on each floor up to the 7th. They were primarily used by employees to transport books up to and down from storage on the upper floors.
 
Both elevators were “open” in that they had a door consisting of wooden slats known as “the gates”. The gates faced in their respective directions and as a safety precaution, a lift could not move between floors unless the gates were closed. It also appears that the gates for each were different as the west lift had “double gates”. The lift gate and the gate for each floor had to be closed in order to use. (Givens WC) The elevators were operated differently; the east lift could only be "driven manually" by a lever from within and could not be “called” to a different floor by press of a button from that floor. The west lift could be called to a different floor by a press button if the gates were closed.
 
Working on the 6th Floor
 
In November 1963 a number of TSBD employees were assigned to lay plywood sheeting over the existing upper floors. Work had completed on the 5th Floor and had commenced on the 6th Floor requiring some movement of boxes of books from the SW area of the floor. Those who were present on Friday the 22nd were Bill Shelley (foreman) and a number of order fillers, Danny Arce, Billy Ray Williams, Charles Givens and Billy Lovelady. Harold Norman, another order filler, was present for periods that morning. He was not assigned to the floor laying activity but visited the crew to “shoot the breeze” as work was not busy with book filling duties. It is uncertain how much time he spent with them but it appears he was with them until they broke for lunch.
 
Occasionally the floor would be visited by order fillers to obtain books that were not available in enough numbers on the 1st floor storage area. It appears that order fillers Jack Dougherty and Lee Oswald visited the 6th Floor that morning for this purpose.
 
In his HSCA interview Junior Jarman, an order checker who worked on the 1st Floor stated that he twice sent Oswald to the 6th Floor to correct orders. The first was at about 8.15 to correct order (Gemberling). He remembered the last occasion was around 11.30 when Oswald walked to Jarman standing near the front window. It was this meeting where Oswald asked Jarman why all the people were gathering out the front. This time clashes with the WC testimony (and Gemberling) that places it much earlier in the morning. Given the reference to people gathering for the motorcade outside, still about 45 minutes or so away, it would seem logical that this time is more accurate. Jarman also claimed to observe Oswald taking the elevator going up (SS491), presumably to the 6th Floor and that Oswald returned sometime later with the correct book (HSCA). Williams testified to the Warren Commission but was not certain he saw Oswald east of the east elevator between 11.30 and the time they broke for lunch. Jack Dougherty in his WC testimony also claimed to have seen Oswald on the 6th Floor around 11 and he appeared to be getting stock as far as he could tell. In a Secret Service interview conducted in early December Givens claimed to have seen Oswald filling orders on the 6th Floor around 11.45. In the same document Lovelady said he saw Oswald around 10am, the location is not stated but as Lovelady was working on the 6th Floor it appears likely it was there (confirmed Gemberling). Norman and Roy Lewis also claimed to see Oswald working on the 1st Floor at 10 and 10.30am respectively. Givens saw him at 8.30 on the 1st Floor by the bins filling orders (WC). He also saw Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room about 11.50 (FBI Gemberling Report) Frazier saw Oswald about 8.30 and 2 or 3 more occasions on the1st Floor during the morning, the last being around 11 (Gemberling). Williams also saw him working on the 1st Floor a little after 8 (WC).
 
Anyone for lunch?
 
It appears that the normal time for lunchbreak for these book shipping employees was 12-12.45. Most of those who testified said that it was normal to break about 5 minutes before 12 to “wash up“ in the facilities adjacent to the domino room on the 1st Floor. On the day of the assassination it seems reasonable the break commenced a little earlier than normal as the Presidential motorcade was likely to pass in front of the TSBD around 12.15 to 12.20.
Foreman Bill Shelley claimed he departed the 6th Floor around 11.50 after working with the floor laying crew all morning. He observed Oswald shortly after arriving on the 1st Floor. Soon after Shelley departed the 6th Floor, it is likely the remainder of the floor-laying crew decided to depart also. The workers participated in an elevator race taking both to the 1st Floor. The minimum time difference between their departure and that of Shelley therefore must be about one minute as the time required for the elevator to travel six floors was about 30 seconds (Lovelady, Gemberling). It would seem reasonable to claim therefore that the workers arrived at the 1st Floor about 1-3 minutes after Shelley.
 
The Gate Race
 
Unfortunately from the various statements and testimonies of the race participants we are unable to determine exactly who was in which lift and who accompanied them. My analysis of the WC testimonies alone shows the following; when asked, Givens claimed to be in the east elevator accompanied by Williams, Lovelady and Arce. This would leave Norman to be the sole inhabitant of the west lift. Arce claimed he was in the east lift with Williams and Lovelady. This would mean Givens and Norman were in the west lift. Lovelady said he was in the west lift with Williams, leaving Givens, Arce and Norman in the east. Williams said he was in the west with 2 or 3 others, Givens in the east. Norman was not questioned about the elevator race. Adding even more confusion to who was where is a reference in the SS491 summary that indicates Dougherty said he was part of the race that day also. As I can find no other support for this assertion I have to conclude this is an error.
The significance of the race is that a number of participants recalled that as the lifts descended Oswald was heard asking that the west elevator be left so that he could call it up from the 1st Floor. Most heard Oswald and from their testimonies it appears that he was near the elevators on the 5th Floor when they were descending. Givens claimed that the east elevator won the race in his WC testimony "the east elevator beat the other one down, because it stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself".
 
It seems that Oswald must have ascended to the 5th Floor prior to the race. The floor-laying crew calling the west elevator to the 6th Floor after his arriving there. As the east elevator could not be summoned it must have already been on the 6th Floor prior to the race. This implies that Shelley took the west lift down around 11.50. Oswald then can use it almost immediately to get to the 5th Floor. It is possible that Shelley sees Oswald their paths crossing as the latter is on his way to the west elevator. Obviously at the end of the race both elevators are now on the 1st Floor after the race sometime between 11.50 and 11.55. For Oswald to now access an elevator the gates on the west elevator would have to be closed as he could not call the east elevator.
 
Who’s on First?
 
TSBD janitor Eddie Piper testified he had a brief conversation with Oswald around 12 on the 1st Floor in which Oswald stated he was going either out or up for lunch. This implies that Oswald did call the west elevator and descend from the 5th Floor immediately following the race. Givens may provide some corroboration for this possibility as he early statement to the FBI indicate he saw Oswald in the domino room reading a paper around 11.50. Obviously as Givens was a participant in the race this means Oswald had descended from the 5th Floor after calling for the gates to be closed. His time estimate for the race was 11.45 so this places the sighting of Oswald in the domino room 5 minutes after the race, sufficient for Oswald to call the west lift to the 5th Floor and get to the 1st floor lunchroom.  If true, the time must have been closer to 12 allowing the conversation with Piper.
 
Givens' Gift
 
The next sighting of Oswald is probably the most contentious. Givens testified to the Warren Commision on April 8 1964 in Dallas. He was questioned by assistant councel Belin and none of the commisioners were present. Givens revealed for the first time that he revisited the 6th Floor to retrieve his cigarettes. He took the east elevator, still on the 1st Floor to the 6th and while turning to renter the elevator saw Oswald walking towards him from the east end of the building, clipboard in hand. This convenient late breaking placement of the accused assassin in proximity to the sniper's nest about 30 minutes before the shooting was analysed thoroughly Sylvia Meagher long ago and the full article can be found here.
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Jfk-conspiracy/Givens63.txt
 
Stretching credibility, Givens claims during this session that almost the same conversation took place with Oswald that occurred minutes before during the elevator race. Givens claims that he took the east elevator back down. He does not hear or see the west elevator moving and when he gets to the 1st Floor to ensure the west elevator gates are closed, the west elevator is not there. The question is who moved the west elevator to a higher floor before Givens descended? The inference has been that it must be Bonnie Ray Williams; however he took the east elevator to the 6th Floor to eat his lunch. Therefore, if we believe the cigarette recovery story, he must have ascended after Givens exited the lift. No other TSBD employee claimed to use the west lift to travel up from the 1st Floor around this time and it could not have been Oswald according to Givens.
 
Bonnie Ray and the Chicken Sandwich
 
In his Warren Commission testimony Williams tells of his travel to the 6th Floor using the east elevator in search of Lovelady and Arce who had made plans sometime in the morning to view the motorcade from the floor they were working on. He claimed to have arrived about 12 and stayed between 5-12 minutes. In the Gemberling Report it claimed he came down at 11.30 and returned at 12, staying for only 3 minutes before taking the stairs to join Jarman and Norman on the 5th Floor, no mention of eating any lunch. In the Secret Service Report (CD87) he is reported to have spent "just a few minutes" there eating lunch and meeting up with Norman and Jarman before 12.15.
 
How do we interpret Williams’ statements? It seems we cannot rely on specific times but merely rough estimates of elapsed time. Williams thought between 10 and 30 minutes elapsed between leaving and getting back to the 6th Floor. He also thought he ate for between 3 and 12 minutes. It would seem that he must have arrived later than 12 and spent about 5-7 minutes at most. If we take the mid-point of his time estimates he would return to the 6th Floor about 20 minutes after the race, arriving closer to 12.15 than noon and probably leaves about 12.20 or so. His Warren Commission testimony also solved a problem with the location of east elevator shortly after the shooting. A minute after the shots were fired, Roy Truly claimed both elevators were stuck on the 5th floor. If Williams took the stairs it would have left the east elevator on the 6th Floor and so his later recollection to the WC now explains the east elevator in its resting place on the 5th Floor.
 
 Williams claimed to the WC he brought his chicken on the bone sandwich from home and bought a bottle of Dr Pepper from the 1st Floor vending machine after going down in the race. No mention of where he got his bag of Fritos! However, Harold Norman in his HSCA interview stated that Williams bought his lunch that day from the truck that parked outside the TSBD each morning. He also claimed in this same interview that all 3 ate their lunch on the 5th Floor. To confuse things further, to the WC Norman said he ate his lunch in the domino room before ascending.  Jarman said he ate his lunch on the 1st Floor before going outside to the WC but to the HSCA he claimed he didn't eat his lunch at all before the motorcade passed.
 
Taking the 5th
 
Harold Norman and Junior Jarman meet up on the 1st Floor and decide to go outside to watch the parade sometime after noon. They are standing to the east of the main entrance of the TSBD. They decide to travel to the upper floors as the crowd at ground level is preventing them from getting a good view and start to walk around the east side of the building about 12.21. The time of this event can be determined as Norman testified to the WC that they started walking after they heard that the motorcade had reached Main St. The police channel 2 radio log shows the motorcade reached Main at this time. Jarman’s WC testimony indicated this to have occurred around 12.20-12.25.
 
They walk along the east wall and turn left, passing the domino room window and in the back door. They approach the elevators intending to go to the 5th Floor as Norman has suggested it would be a good viewing position. As they approach the elevators in the SW region of the 1st Floor the east elevator was not there, it was on 6 brought up by Williams. They move around to the west elevator and notice it too is on the 6th Floor. The gates must be closed as they are able to call it down and ascend to the 5th Floor. When they arrive they close the gates on the west elevator which will allow it to be used by others. It is interesting that the west elevator was on the 6th Floor before they ascended and its gates were closed allowing them to call it. Remember, according to Givens WC testimony, when he reached the 1st Floor some 15-20 minutes earlier it was on an upper floor (but not the 6th Floor). One might speculate that Oswald called it up after Givens left but if he did why would he not leave the gates open, locking it on the 6th Floor making it unavailable for others?
 
If they started walking at 12.21 they would travel about 180 feet to the elevators and a further 100 feet or so to get to the SE corner of the 5th Floor. Travelling 280 feet at a walking pace of 5 feet per second and allowing a minute for the elevator to descend from the 6th and back to the 5th Floor would mean they arrive in position about 12.23. Both Jarman and Norman recalled they opened the windows when they reached their viewing position in the SE corner.
 
Meanwhile on the 6th Floor, realizing that it is unlikely that anyone will join him to watch the motorcade, Williams decides to leave the 6th Floor. It is possible that he heard Norman and Jarman below and takes the east elevator down to the 5th Floor to investigate. To do this he needs to walk about 100 feet to the east elevator and a similar distance to join his co-workers. Time for the travel between floors is minimal maybe 10 seconds. This means he could have reached his position in the windows around 12.24 if he left at the time Norman and Jarman arrived. Williams did not notice any movement of the west lift, still at the 5th Floor in his short journey and he sees and hears no one on either the 6th or 5th Floors apart from Norman and Jarman for the entire time he is there.
 
Enter the Sandman
 
Jack Dougherty, like Lee Oswald,  was a TSBD order filler whose duties occasionally took him to the upper floors of the TSBD to retrieve books out of stock on the 1st Floor. In Dougherty's WC testimony he claimed although he normally took his full lunch break and expressed some desire to see the President decided to return to work early. Some time after eating lunch in the domino room with Danny Arce he used the west elevator to go to the 6th Floor to get some stock. If the events described in the testmonies of the TSBD workers are true it means that Dougherty calls the west elevator down from the 5th Floor and goes to the same Floor as the assassin just before the shots were fired.  The earliest time for Dougherty to arrive on the 6th Floor is 12.25 if he calls the elevator immediately Williams is in position at the windows on the 5th Floor. This means that the assassin was alone on the 6th Floor from around 12.15 until 12.30 for just a few minutes.
 
He testified getting stock from the 6th Floor and then took the lift to the 5th Floor to to likewise and must have left the gates open. While getting stock on the 5th Floor Dougherty heard what he thought was a backfire. He claimed he was about 10 feet west of the west elevator when this occurred. He does not indicate he moved from this position, or that he hears or sees anyone until taking the west elevator down to the 1st Floor no less than 60 seconds later. We know that Truly and Baker paused at the elevators around one minute after the shots and observed them stuck on the 5th Floor. Dougherty does not hear Truly shout up twice to close the gates or the bell ring. He does not hear Norman, Jarman and Williams talking or running across to the southern side windows. He does not hear or see anyone running down the stairs. None of the other three workers see or hear Dougherty however Norman stated in his HSCA interview he heard the elevator moving. He could not tell whether it went up or down.
Baker and Truly up the stairs following the brief encounter with Oswald around 90 seconds after the shots. They continue up three more flights of stairs and Truly heads for the elevators. Most likely he remembered them stuck at this location about a minute or so before. Truly notices the west elevator is missing and not bothering to mention this to Baker heads for the east elevator. At about 12.33 they take the east lift to the 7th Floor on their way to the roof. In his WC testimony Williams stated that from the western side of the building  he saw Baker' helmet over the boxes blocking their view of the stairway. The earlier reports stated that he saw a policeman on the stairs (SS) or arrive on an elevator(FBI). The FBI report also stated that Williams claimed he and the others could see anyone coming down the stairs from their position.
It would seem therefore that the earliest the west elevator could reach the 1st Floor was about 90 seconds after the shots.
 
Gemberling Report
 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/getToc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=362&source=controls_D.jsp
 
SS491
 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=3

Excellent analysis Colin.

When Truly and Baker reach the 5th, the west elevator is gone. The only real option is that Dougherty has taken it.
Either Dougherty was on the fifth when he took the west elevator down to the first floor before Truly and Baker arrived.
Dougherty called the west elevator to the 6th floor then took it down to the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrived.
Dougherty called the west elevator to the 6th which is where it was when Truly and Baker arrived. After they reached the roof Dougherty took the west elevator down to the first floor.

[Richard Smith]

Why didn't Frazier hear all the metal pieces jangling around in the bag?

Did the rifle have to be completely disassembled as shown in that photo to fit the bag?  What could be the fewest pieces that the rifle could have been in to fit the bag? 

[Dan O'meara]

I don't believe there are any answers to be found anywhere near Dealey Plaza. I've avoided reading almost all JFK Assassination "research" supported books and I think if any evidence proving a cover up exists in the Zapruder film, it would have resolved some issues by now, but what has it resolved? My point is it is counterproductive compared to the many things easily proven.

Dan, I was old enough on the day after JFK was assassinated, to cut an image of Oswald out of the front page of the local newspaper and take it to a friend's house where it was mounted on a dart board, the face in the image covering the bulls eye of the dart board.

Then, I lived my life, I had a neighorhood newspaper delivery route a few years after 1963 until just after Garrison brought the JFK Assassination back into the news. I usually read the first section of the newspaper I delivered, every day.
After that, there was plenty to distract me from focus on JFK until 2008, when I read this.:

This is a reprint of an article with identical details published before the Nov., 2008 election.
https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Mr-Obamas-neighborhood
"...According to lore, when Minow called a partner in his firm to recommend he meet with Obama during a visit to Harvard, the partner told him he had already been hired for a summer internship.Obama's experience at the Sidley Austin firm, where he soon got to know Minow, a former Federal Communications Commission chairman (as well as his future wife, Michelle Robinson), was crucial in introducing Obama to leading local Jewish figures like the billionaire Crown. Crown first became acquainted with the young associate after Minow suggested he meet this "special" guy who "is going places." And indeed, Crown describes him as "brilliant" and "a quick study," though he does not pretend to have pictured Obama sitting in the Oval Office during their early encounters.These kinds of introductions proved key for Obama's construction of a network which would eventually support his political aspirations. The Crown family, for instance, have been major financial backers, with Lester's son James serving as Obama's Illinois finance chairman.".."

I did some research and then wrote these two blog posts.
https://postbushera.blogspot.com/2008/
"....    https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/ON-ECONOMICS-How-Kennedy-Assassination-2958771.php

    ON ECONOMICS: -- How Kennedy Assassination Affected Some Stock Prices
    JONATHAN MARSHALL
    Monday, November 18, 1996
    ....But the facts speak tellingly about how accidents of history can affect great fortunes.
    A postscript for assassination buffs: No individual stood to lose more from the TFX scandal than Chicago investor Henry Crown, who owned 20 percent of General Dynamics. His personal attorney, Albert Jenner, became a senior staff attorney on the Warren Commission, in charge of investigating the possibility of a conspiracy.In later years, Jenner also represented Chicago labor racketeer Allen Dorfman. Dorfman's stepfather Paul, a leading figure in the Chicago mob, ran the Waste Handlers Union in Chicago in 1939 with Jack Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald's future killer.
    Both Dorfmans hated the Kennedy family. Robert Kennedy had hauled them before a Senate crime panel in the late 1950s, where they took the Fifth Amendment.
    Allen Dorfman was murdered, gangland-style, in 1983 in the company of another friend of Ruby, Irwin Weiner. Attorney Jenner obtained Weiner's acquittal in a 1975 federal labor racketeering case after the government's leading witness was shotgunned to death.
    Weiner was called to testify in 1978 before the House Select Committee on Assassinations about his relationship with Ruby, including a phone conversation with Ruby shortly before the assassination. He said the call was innocent.
    The committee was investigating the theory -- which it never proved -- that organized crime had Ruby silence Oswald to disguise its own role in the Kennedy assassination....."

Intrigued by what I read in the above article, I searched for confirmation: ..."

My second blog post.:
https://postbushera.blogspot.com/2010/01/14-months-later-revisiting-this-blog.html
"....Consider that behind the following “mother of all cover ups”, is the family of Obama’s earliest and wealthiest backer. The crux of the following are the indications that Tom Clark heard in 1946, details of the background of the man whose son he hired as his SCOTUS clerk in 1956, and that Clark is named as vouching for that man’s lawyer to serve as senior investigative counsel to determine if there was a conspiracy to assassinate the president.

Not only did the FBI keep from the Warren Commission, every detail described by Sy Hersh about former FBI SA, IB Hale and his twin sons in the 1962, FBI observed burglary of Judith Exner's Los Angeles apartment, ..."

A month after writing the first blog post, I joined the Education Forum, JFK Debate in 2009, later became a moderator there, and in 2015, the comments editor of jfkfacts.org .

One thing I am sure of is "people in high places" did not want the public to know what actually happened, Marina Porter was "gagged" until 1978.... 14 years... Priscilla steered Marina to this guy.:

'4'''-*t4*tttkiO Marina Oswald - Hood College
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/McMillan%20Priscilla%20Marina%20&%20Lee/Item%2013.pdf
Marina's New York agent, Perry Knowlton, and Harper and Row editors have forbidden her to discuss the up- coming book without their permission for at least a year after its publication.

Facts are that a cousin of Allen Dulles was the last person to see Priscilla's father alive and reported him "missing" and Priscilla used here father's death to the HSCA as an excuse for taking 14 years to finish and publish her book, Marina & Lee!

https://archive.is/esTuB
....
https://archive.is/o/esTuB/www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95330&relPageId=42

Hi Tom,

With all respect. your post is wasted on someone like me.
You're so far down the line on this case it's not even funny and I'm still stuck in Dealey Plaza.
I'm sure more senior researchers understand your post but I'm struggling.
What I will say is this - as far as I'm concerned the majority of those who were on the 6th floor that morning are clearly lying between their original statements and their WC testimonies. I find this significant.
The main man is Bill Shelley and it is clear, to me at least, that Billy Lovelady is parroting what Shelley is telling him to say. They both neglect to mention their trip down towards the railroad yard in their original statements. They both neglect to mention they re-enter the TSBD by the west door, instead they both seem to say they re-enter the TSBD by the front door. In their WC testimonies they both introduce the 3 minute timestamp for when Baker arrives.
Dougherty, Norman, Williams and Givens are also lying.
Why?

As for the Z-film. It cannot be used to demonstrate a cover-up but it is highly significant. I doubt there is a single CTer (myself included) who was not influenced by the "back and to the left" motion of JFK after the headshot. It was quite a slow and difficult path for me to come to the realisation that this motion was actually caused by a shot from behind (see my "Unseeing the Headshot" thread). Once this is realised the only aspect of the Z-film that seems to demonstrate 'conspiracy' disappears. The Z-film is consistent with at least two shots coming from the general direction of the TSBD.

[Dan O'meara]

Did the rifle have to be completely disassembled as shown in that photo into multiple parts or just shortened by removing the barrel?  What could be the fewest pieces that the rifle could have been in to fit the bag?

Good call.
This sounds like a job for Walt Cakebread.

[Colin Crow]

Did the rifle have to be completely disassembled as shown in that photo to fit the bag?  What could be the fewest pieces that the rifle could have been in to fit the bag?

I’m sure you will find the answer in the WCR......it was an exhaustive investigation after all wasn’t it.