JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 01, 2022, 05:11:56 AM ---At 1:00 Tina says that the first shot was at about when she stopped filming.
But i still have not been able to find the footage where she says that she wasn’t sure whether the first shot was before or after she stopped filming.
Anyhow, i say that the first shot was at Z111, slug ricocheted at Z112, sound hit JFK at Z113.
Holland said that the first shot was at i think Z103.
--- End quote ---
Tina Towner has always been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred seconds after she stopped filming.
* In the earliest interview for a teen magazine in 1968 she said that she started walking back to the corner to get ready to leave when the first shot sounded. (Towner, Tina. "View From the Corner." Teen June 1968: 46-49, 90).
* In her written statement filed with the Sixth Floor Museum she said that the first shot sounded 4-6 seconds after she stopped filming. In an email to me from Gary Mack of March 1, 2007, Gary stated:
"I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming. However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six seconds. So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her memory has changed.
* In a 2013 report of a presentation Tina made in Greenville, TX it is stated:
“I heard the first gunshot right after I quit taking the film,” Towner said, as she appeared last week before the Greenville Kiwanis Club.
...
She said she heard the first shots “about two seconds” after she stopped filming."
So Max Holland is twisting her words to fit his nice theory that does not fit with any facts.
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on June 03, 2022, 08:46:25 PM ---Tina Towner has always been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred seconds after she stopped filming.
* In the earliest interview for a teen magazine in 1968 she said that she started walking back to the corner to get ready to leave when the first shot sounded. (Towner, Tina. "View From the Corner." Teen June 1968: 46-49, 90).
* In her written statement filed with the Sixth Floor Museum she said that the first shot sounded 4-6 seconds after she stopped filming. In an email to me from Gary Mack of March 1, 2007, Gary stated:
"I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming. However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six seconds. So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her memory has changed.
* In a 2013 report of a presentation Tina made in Greenville, TX it is stated:
“I heard the first gunshot right after I quit taking the film,” Towner said, as she appeared last week before the Greenville Kiwanis Club.
...
She said she heard the first shots “about two seconds” after she stopped filming."
So Max Holland is twisting her words to fit his nice theory that does not fit with any facts.
--- End quote ---
Yes i think that her statement that shot-1 was just before or just after she stopped filming was to Holland & might have been a soft version to not overly offend his theory that shot-1 was at Z103 (my Z113), or at least when JFK was in line with the Oswald's view in line with the overhead signal arm.
However, Holland was not twisting her words, her words are her words, unless the footage was cleverly edited.
However, Holland might have pressured her in the usual ways.
However, Holland was correct (place wize)(if not time wize). The "solid-facts" tell us that. Witness statements are all quasi-facts, pseudo-facts & faux-facts.
So, either Tina miss-remembered, or, she miss-heard.
If what she says was shot-1 was shot-2 then Tina's 4 sec makes sense, koz most of us agree that (Oswald's) shot-2 was 5 or 6 sec after (Oswald's) shot-1.
Shot-1 was at T137 (possibly Z113 say i)(Z103 says Holland i think), & Tina stopped filming at T142 (possibly Z118)(Z108).
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 03, 2022, 09:29:11 PM ---Yes i think that her statement that shot-1 was just before or just after she stopped filming was to Holland & might have been a soft version to not overly offend his theory that shot-1 was at Z103 (my Z113), or at least when JFK was in line with the Oswald's view in line with the overhead signal arm.
However, Holland was not twisting her words, her words are her words, unless the footage was cleverly edited.
However, Holland might have pressured her in the usual ways.
However, Holland was correct (place wize)(if not time wize). The "solid-facts" tell us that. Witness statements are all quasi-facts, pseudo-facts & faux-facts.
So, either Tina miss-remembered, or, she miss-heard.
--- End quote ---
But it is not just Tina Towner. Hugh Betzner said the first shot followed his z186 photo. Phillip Willis said the first shot was an instant before his z202 photo - that he clicked the shutter as a reflex to hearing the sound. Croft said he took his z161 photo and then hurried to wind his camera and pressed the shutter at the moment that he heard a shot - the Argus camera malfunctioned and the film was not exposed.*
And that is not all. There are at least 20 witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot. Not a single witness said he smiled or waved after the first shot. You have him smiling and waving for about 5 seconds after it.
And, again, that is not all: at least a dozen witnesses put the first shot when the President was just passing or almost passing or had just passed where they were standing. This puts the first shot between z190 and z220. Linda Willis said the first shot occurred when the President was between her and the Stemmons sign (between z195 and z205).
And that is not all. For Tina Towner to have been wrong, there had to have been at least 5 seconds between the last two shots. Yet over 45 witnesses provided statements and/or testimony that the last two shots were in rapid succession and noticeably closer together than the first two. Shots at z120, z225 and z313 do not fit that pattern.
All of these witnesses, not just Tina Towner, would have to not only be wrong in their observations, but to have recalled it incorrectly the same way. And it is just this one fact that witnesses would have been wrong on. The witness evidence is generally accurate with respect to the other observations they made.
Holland's theory is clever, but ugly facts make it untenable.
----------------------------------------------
* Here is what Gary Mack wrote to me in that email from 2007 about Croft's camera:
"As for Croft's blank photo, I can explain that, for my father had the exact same camera model, an Argus C-3. Dad used to get blank pictures all the time and he always got so made when it happened!
To advance the film in that camera, one had to depress a button on the top right and turn a knob on the top left. If you held the button down too long, which Dad often did, you'd roll past the next position on the roll of film. The skipped area would be blank - and that's what Croft received when his pictures were processed."
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on June 04, 2022, 12:05:25 AM ---But it is not just Tina Towner. Hugh Betzner said the first shot followed his z186 photo. Phillip Willis said the first shot was an instant before his z202 photo - that he clicked the shutter as a reflex to hearing the sound. Croft said he took his z161 photo and then hurried to wind his camera and pressed the shutter at the moment that he heard a shot - the Argus camera malfunctioned and the film was not exposed.*
And that is not all. There are at least 20 witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot. Not a single witness said he smiled or waved after the first shot. You have him smiling and waving for about 5 seconds after it.
And, again, that is not all: at least a dozen witnesses put the first shot when the President was just passing or almost passing or had just passed where they were standing. This puts the first shot between z190 and z220. Linda Willis said the first shot occurred when the President was between her and the Stemmons sign (between z195 and z205).
And that is not all. For Tina Towner to have been wrong, there had to have been at least 5 seconds between the last two shots. Yet over 45 witnesses provided statements and/or testimony that the last two shots were in rapid succession and noticeably closer together than the first two. Shots at z120, z225 and z313 do not fit that pattern.
All of these witnesses, not just Tina Towner, would have to not only be wrong in their observations, but to have recalled it incorrectly the same way. And it is just this one fact that witnesses would have been wrong on. The witness evidence is generally accurate with respect to the other observations they made.
Holland's theory is clever, but ugly facts make it untenable.
----------------------------------------------
* Here is what Gary Mack wrote to me in that email from 2007 about Croft's camera:
"As for Croft's blank photo, I can explain that, for my father had the exact same camera model, an Argus C-3. Dad used to get blank pictures all the time and he always got so made when it happened!
To advance the film in that camera, one had to depress a button on the top right and turn a knob on the top left. If you held the button down too long, which Dad often did, you'd roll past the next position on the roll of film. The skipped area would be blank - and that's what Croft received when his pictures were processed."
--- End quote ---
There has been a lot written about witnesses for 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 shots & more (eg a flurry of shots).
Many standing near Houston said that shot-1 was when the jfklimo was close to Houston, & as the jfklimo got straight, & when the jfklimo was near the signals. I myself found a new witness……
Howard Whately that said 3 years ago (edited)
…………… i was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots i was about 25 ft. east of tsbd. you could tell the difference 1 shot was low kinda muffled came just as the limo got straight on elm i'm sure it missed……….
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
…………….that's right,and the two were different sounds the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second sounded lower in tone but louder.iv'e filled many deer and hogs ,and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle,sometimes a popping sound is conman………..
Dallas Brubaker 3 years ago (edited)
………….Howard Whatley, You were in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-1963 at 12"30 pm cst?.........
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
……………..right strictly by chance,i didn't even know he was coming until the told us at the courthouse.went there to get manage licence.never spoke much about it.went back to camp Pendleton sunday came back home in jan. 1964. my wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.there's a couple things i never heard anyone mention what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.will say without any doubt there were more than three shots and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle……………………
Here is my own idea of the shot sequence, if Hickey fired 6 shots (he fired at least 4).
Shot-1 (which ricocheted offa the signal arm) was at about Z103 (Holland) or about Z113 (me). Anyhow it was when JFK was in line with the signal arm (from Oswald's carcano).
Shot-2 was at Z218 (me)(the magic bullet).
Shot-3 (Hickey's AR15) was at Z298 (bloodied Tague)(modern AR15s can fire at 1200 rpm, but Hickey's AR15-601 probly fired at 400 rpm).
Shot-4-5-6 hit tarmac & kerb & grass at Z301-304-307.
Shot-7 at Z310 hit the chrome trim of the jfklimo windshield above the mirror.
Shot-8 hit JFK in the head at Z313, & the remnant slug cracked the windshield glass left of the mirror.
Holland's theory is good & bad & ugly.
Good—Shot-1 ricocheted offa the signal arm he said. Yes.
Bad – Shot-1 hit the tarmac he said (& he said remnants bounced up into the jfklimo). No, the 2 copper jacket remnants went directly into the jfklimo. No, we know that the slug put a hole in the floor of the jfklimo.
Ugly – Shot-1 bloodied Tague he said. No.
JFK was hit in the back of the head by lead splatter from the ricochet of shot-1 (as can be seen in Xrays).
JFK said …. 'my god i have been hit'…. (according to Kellerman).
But as u say JFK went back to smiling & waving (thinking that it was a firecracker or backfire).
Connally initially said that shot-1 was near Houston.
There is only one person in the world that is correct, me. Read my 400 postings (the early ones aint so good)(but i was learning fast).
Marjan Rynkiewicz:
The Oswald Diet looks to me to be ok for a young guy using lots of energy & on his feet at work all day.
However a good or bad diet depends mainly on the quantity of food rather than quality (within reason).
For guys who are not very active the Oswald Diet would be ok if quantity was kept minimal.
But if u tend to be overwt i would not follow the Oswald Diet, ie i would make changes to the quality, mainly reducing sugar (especially fructose) & flour (carbohydrate).
I see that the diet ideas of Dr Eric Berg (youtube) do not contradict my own general ideas (that i came up with in 1974)(mostly from one book).
Here are my comments re the Oswald Diet.
Breakfast -- For guys who are less active i would agree with Oswald that breakfast is not needed. A cup of coffee is ok (don’t use sugar).
Lunch – Peanut butter is ok if u are not overwt (9% sugar). Cheese is ok. Lettuce is ok. Avoid fruit (fructose is bad)(carb is bad if overwt). Avoid apple (fructose is bad)(carb). If overwt i would avoid bread (carb)(possible seed reaction). I would avoid Coke&Pepsi (fructose)(carb)(nowadays diet coke might be ok). Bananas are marginal (fructose).
I think that Oswald sometimes bort a hamburger for lunch (but i suspect that Marina was mistaken)(it was for dinner). Anyhow the occasional hamburger is ok (carb)(sugar).
But best to not have any lunch if not very active, just have one meal a day (Dinner).
Exercise -- Lunchtime is good -- eg shoot a president out of season without a permit -- & a brisk walk down several flights of stairs to a bus-stop.
Dinner – Meat & veggies are good. I would avoid fruit (fructose) & desert (if sugar)(& if pastry).
I would add fish (daily)(eg sardines).
Me myself i eat raw veggies (ie that dont need cooking)(daily), except that i have fries (potato)(daily)(my favorit food).
Dont overdo the salt (especially if u have hi blood pressure).
Alcohol – Oswald didn’t drink grog, & didn’t smoke.
If Oswald bort lunch near TSBD it would be a hamburger i think.
[edit 4june2022][A caterer sold lunches outside the TSBD at 10 am each workday, & probly sold hamburgers][why would Oswald buy the same old cheese sandwich & apple that he usually got from Marina?]
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