Then went inside with the curtain rods

[Dan O'meara]

That's what Frazier said

That is correct

But the only story he told was the curtain rods story, so how does that make any sense if Oswald came up with that story and Frazier actually didn't believe it?

?? Frazier did believe it.
He had absolutely no reason to believe Oswald was lying.
No reason to believe Oswald was bringing a rifle to work.
His trusting nature was taken advantage of.

Btw Frazier left the TSBD before Oswald was arrested and he would have been in Irving by the time news about Oswald's arrest was first on the radio (at 2:40 PM). Frazier's sources of information were very limited from the moment he left the TSBD until he was arrested at the hospital at around 6 PM. So, when and how did he get enough information to connect the dots?

JFK is assassinated by a shot from the TSBD.
Oswald is arrested.
What more information does he need?

It very quickly dawns on Buell that Oswald lied about bringing curtain rods to work.
He'd brought a rifle and Buell quickly put two and two together.
How could he explain away that Oswald had carried a rifle to work that morning and he had done nothing about it.
When Frazier looked back on it, it was obvious it was a rifle.
How could he have accepted it was curtain rods? (because he was a trusting person who had no idea what was happening)

In the report I posted above Frazier is arrested sometime between 5:19 and 5:35.
Using this timeframe, Linnie Mae strolls up to Adamcik to offer the "short-long bag" story sometime between 3:30 and 4:45 (assuming it takes about a half hour for everyone to get back to City Hall).

Frazier had at least one hour to realise what a predicament he was in and to get together with Linnie Mae to come up with the "short-long bag story".

It is actually possible that Frazier was at home when he saw the officers converging on the Paine residence and decided that now was a good time to visit his step-dad.

[Martin Weidmann]

That is correct

?? Frazier did believe it.
He had absolutely no reason to believe Oswald was lying.
No reason to believe Oswald was bringing a rifle to work.
His trusting nature was taken advantage of.

Indeed, so why did you write earlier;

After the event he realised it was a rifle and that no-one would buy his "But I thought it was curtain rods" excuse.

If, as you claim, Frazier thought no-one would buy the curtain rods story, then why would he still tell it and not come up with something else?

JFK is assassinated by a shot from the TSBD.
Oswald is arrested.
What more information does he need?

How does Frazier know so soon that the shots were fired from the TSBD? Btw he testified that he thought they came from the railroad area.

How and when did Frazier find out Oswald was arrested and for what?

It very quickly dawns on Buell that Oswald lied about bringing curtain rods to work.
He'd brought a rifle and Buell quickly put two and two together.
How could he explain away that Oswald had carried a rifle to work that morning and he had done nothing about it.
When Frazier looked back on it, it was obvious it was a rifle.
How could he have accepted it was curtain rods? (because he was a trusting person who had no idea what was happening)

This is all hindsight not supported by the facts or evidence

In the report I posted above Frazier is arrested sometime between 5:19 and 5:35.
Using this timeframe, Linnie Mae strolls up to Adamcik to offer the "short-long bag" story sometime between 3:30 and 4:45 (assuming it takes about a half hour for everyone to get back to City Hall).

In their report, Rose, Stovall and Adamcik gave a later time.

Frazier had at least one hour to realise what a predicament he was in and to get together with Linnie Mae to come up with the "short-long bag story".

Only if he had all the information at that time, which he clearly couldn't have. Oswald was arrested after Frazier left the TSBD. The first broadcast of his arrest was at 2:40 only mentioned that he was arrested in connection with the murder of officer Tippit.

It's highly speculative to assume that Frazier, between his departure from the TSBD and his arrest at the hospital, would somehow have obtained sufficient information to tie Oswald to the Kennedy murder and draw the conclusions you propose. But even if he did, why did he still tell the curtain rods story?

It is actually possible that Frazier was at home when he saw the officers converging on the Paine residence and decided that now was a good time to visit his step-dad.

It's also possible that Frazier wasn't aware of any problem until he was arrested. Speculation isn't getting you far!

[Dan O'meara]

In this scenario why mention a package at all?

Because Oswald was carrying a package.
Frazier would have to assume other people might have seen him carrying the package (Ruth Paine, Marina, neighbours etc.)
How would it look if Frazier denied seeing a package at all that others had seen Oswald carrying to his car?
Why take the chance of the out-and-out lie that there was no package when there was one.

Frazier isn't inventing the package.
He isn't inventing he was told they were curtain rods.

[Martin Weidmann]

Because Oswald was carrying a package.
Frazier would have to assume other people might have seen him carrying the package (Ruth Paine, Marina, neighbours etc.)
How would it look if Frazier denied seeing a package at all that others had seen Oswald carrying to his car?
Why take the chance of the out-and-out lie that there was no package when there was one.

Frazier isn't inventing the package.
He isn't inventing he was told they were curtain rods.

Frazier isn't inventing the package.
He isn't inventing he was told they were curtain rods.

Indeed. He didn't invent a story and simply told the truth.

I still don't understand how you can claim, on the one hand, that Frazier, at some point early on, understood he could be in trouble and needed to concoct a story with his sister, yet on the other hand confirm that Frazier told investigators exactly what really happened.

There is an obvious contradiction there. 

[Dan O'meara]

If that's the case then how were they submitted into evidence 8 days before they were "found" undisturbed in the Paine garage?

I assume you're talking about this extraordinary document posted by Alan:



For me, the importance of this document is that there could hardly be a clearer example of tampering with the processing of evidence.
I find it hard to believe an honest mistake has led to the same document being given different release dates.
It seems to be a doctored document and, as such, can hardly be viewed as being reliable in any way.
The submitted date (3/15/64) can be taken with a pinch of salt.
The question is - what did the person(s) creating this document hope to achieve?

[Dan O'meara]

Indeed, so why did you write earlier;

After the event he realised it was a rifle and that no-one would buy his "But I thought it was curtain rods" excuse.

If, as you claim, Frazier thought no-one would buy the curtain rods story, then why would he still tell it and not come up with something else?

How does Frazier know so soon that the shots were fired from the TSBD? Btw he testified that he thought they came from the railroad area.

How and when did Frazier find out Oswald was arrested and for what?

This is all hindsight not supported by the facts or evidence

In their report, Rose, Stovall and Adamcik gave a later time.

Only if he had all the information at that time, which he clearly couldn't have. Oswald was arrested after Frazier left the TSBD. The first broadcast of his arrest was at 2:40 only mentioned that he was arrested in connection with the murder of officer Tippit.

It's highly speculative to assume that Frazier, between his departure from the TSBD and his arrest at the hospital, would somehow have obtained sufficient information to tie Oswald to the Kennedy murder and draw the conclusions you propose. But even if he did, why did he still tell the curtain rods story?

It's also possible that Frazier wasn't aware of any problem until he was arrested. Speculation isn't getting you far!

You seem to be deliberately complicating the scenario I'm proposing.
The scenario, which is obviously speculation, is meant to account for as many factors as possible relating to the curtain rod affair.
The point is that Frazier only alters one aspect of what actually happened - the size of the bag. That's all.
Everything else happened as he testified.

1) Oswald asks to be dropped off on Thursday evening to collect some curtain rods:

BWF didn't know there were curtain rods in the Paine garage, that's why he couldn't have made up the curtain rod story. Oswald did know they were in there which is why he made the story up. To have cover for the long package he was bringing to work.
And there was 2 curtain rods in the garage. Ruth Paine had put them there herself.
Oswald didn't need curtain rods. He had perfectly functioning curtain rods in his room.
He never mentioned to his landlady he was going to change the curtain rods.
He never mentioned to Ruth Paine he was going to take the curtain rods.
The only person he mentioned curtain rods to was Frazier.
And the 2 curtain rods were still there after the assassination. Because Oswald never took them.

2) Oswald shows up the next morning with a long package:

In the long package is the rifle Marina testified to seeing in the tied-up blanket in the garage which was no longer there when the police searched the garage later that day.
BWF asks what the package is and Oswald reminds him of the curtain rods.
BWF has absolutely no reason to doubt him and accepts the story.

After the assassination there is a roll call in the TSBD after which BWF returns home.
Frazier is adamant he was in the hospital only a short time (15 - 20 mins at the most) before he was arrested.
Let's say it takes 15 mins to drive from the house he was staying to where his step-dad was (probably shorter)
In the report I posted we can assume BWF was arrested approximately 5:30pm which means he could have been in his house until as late as 4:45pm watching events unfold on the TV. It's possible he saw the police activity at the Paine house before heading off.
As you point out, Rose and Stovall place his arrest later in the day which means he could have left the house even later.
By 4:45pm anyone watching the TV knows that the shots that killed JFK came from the TSBD and that Oswald, a TSBD employee, had been arrested.

Buell realises that the long package contained a rifle and not curtain rods.
He realises that he has been duped.
He realises that, through no fault of his own, he is an accomplice in the murder of the President.
He realises that if he describes the package he actually saw no-one will believe he thought they were curtain rods.
He can't say there was no package because if he gets caught out blatantly lying he will be in real trouble.

All he can do is diminish the size of the package and make out he never really paid any attention to it as Oswald explained they were curtain rods.
He's done nothing wrong.

Oswald denies bringing curtain rods with him because he knows they are still back at the garage.

[Martin Weidmann]

You seem to be deliberately complicating the scenario I'm proposing.
The scenario, which is obviously speculation, is meant to account for as many factors as possible relating to the curtain rod affair.
The point is that Frazier only alters one aspect of what actually happened - the size of the bag. That's all.
Everything else happened as he testified.

1) Oswald asks to be dropped off on Thursday evening to collect some curtain rods:

BWF didn't know there were curtain rods in the Paine garage, that's why he couldn't have made up the curtain rod story. Oswald did know they were in there which is why he made the story up. To have cover for the long package he was bringing to work.
And there was 2 curtain rods in the garage. Ruth Paine had put them there herself.
Oswald didn't need curtain rods. He had perfectly functioning curtain rods in his room.
He never mentioned to his landlady he was going to change the curtain rods.
He never mentioned to Ruth Paine he was going to take the curtain rods.
The only person he mentioned curtain rods to was Frazier.
And the 2 curtain rods were still there after the assassination. Because Oswald never took them.

2) Oswald shows up the next morning with a long package:

In the long package is the rifle Marina testified to seeing in the tied-up blanket in the garage which was no longer there when the police searched the garage later that day.
BWF asks what the package is and Oswald reminds him of the curtain rods.
BWF has absolutely no reason to doubt him and accepts the story.

After the assassination there is a roll call in the TSBD after which BWF returns home.
Frazier is adamant he was in the hospital only a short time (15 - 20 mins at the most) before he was arrested.
Let's say it takes 15 mins to drive from the house he was staying to where his step-dad was (probably shorter)
In the report I posted we can assume BWF was arrested approximately 5:30pm which means he could have been in his house until as late as 4:45pm watching events unfold on the TV. It's possible he saw the police activity at the Paine house before heading off.
As you point out, Rose and Stovall place his arrest later in the day which means he could have left the house even later.
By 4:45pm anyone watching the TV knows that the shots that killed JFK came from the TSBD and that Oswald, a TSBD employee, had been arrested.

Buell realises that the long package contained a rifle and not curtain rods.
He realises that he has been duped.
He realises that, through no fault of his own, he is an accomplice in the murder of the President.
He realises that if he describes the package he actually saw no-one will believe he thought they were curtain rods.
He can't say there was no package because if he gets caught out blatantly lying he will be in real trouble.

All he can do is diminish the size of the package and make out he never really paid any attention to it as Oswald explained they were curtain rods.
He's done nothing wrong.

Oswald denies bringing curtain rods with him because he knows they are still back at the garage.

You seem to be deliberately complicating the scenario I'm proposing.

Not really. The scenario doesn't make any sense.

The scenario, which is obviously speculation, is meant to account for as many factors as possible relating to the curtain rod affair.
The point is that Frazier only alters one aspect of what actually happened - the size of the bag. That's all.
Everything else happened as he testified.

No. Frazier actually doesn't change anything. He tells exactly what happened, that he saw Oswald carry a bag, that he was told it contained curtain rods and that Oswald carried the package in the cup of his hand and underneath his armpit.

In other words, even if your speculation is true, that Frazier at some point somehow started to believe that Oswald had actually brought a broken down rifle of 34,8" in that paper bag (which Frazier denies to this day), it did not motivate him to change anything in his story.

Your entire convoluted theory seems to have as it's sole purpose that Frazier at some point knew or understood that Oswald had brought a rifle to work that Friday. It's not only highly speculative but it's also something that Frazier has denied from day one.