The Bus Stop Farce

[Martin Weidmann]

There are Trump supporters - like my older brother who said Trump was an ass but "He's my ass" - who recognize how awful he was as a person (and my god, what a narcissistic jerk he is) but thought he was at least concerned about them and that the alternative was even worse and then there are Trump supporters who truly think he was some sort of god and believe all sorts of nonsense.

Similarly with conspiracy believers: some are asking good questions, are honestly puzzled by this event and can be reasoned with; and then there are people like the ones you're trying to reason with. It's hopeless.

and then there are people like the ones you're trying to reason with

LNs don't try to reason with anybody. They'll try everything else, like misrepresentation, ridicule, hysterics an ad hom attacks, but they will never ever enter into a honest discussion about the evidence. At best they will try to twist and fit one piece of evidence and argue the point to death with complete disregard for the bigger picture and/or conflicting evidence, as can be easily demonstrated by my latest reply in this thread to Charles Collins

[Richard Smith]

So the people who control all this evidence need the fibers to link Oswald to the crime because they have no other evidence?

This would be hilarious, if it wasn't so sad and pathetic. In a blink of an eye you go from trying to ridicule me about the fiber evidence;

to - after being confronted with Stombaugh, in his testimony, agreeing with me - to who needs fibers anyway.

And you still think you are credible and can be taken seriously? Really?   

But wait they do link Oswald to the crime through a multitude of other evidence that you suggest they don't have - prints, rifle etc. because they control all the evidence in your fantasy (just like the fibers).

The rifle can tentatively be linked to Oswald. That's true and I never disputed that. But, and this probably goes over your head again, the fact that the rifle was found at the TSBD does not automatically link Oswald to the crime. And, as for prints, there are none. The FBI found no prints on the rifle the day after the murder. Only seven days later, Day, suddenly produces a piece of paper with a print on it, which he claimed he took from the rifle but never mentioned to anybody for a whole week. Wow!

It's bizarre to suggest they then engage in this vast conspiracy to link him to the rifle via a hole in his shirt only then to be told by you - wait for it - wait some more - that they couldn't link anyone via fibers.  HA HA HA

It's even worse than bizarre, when you consider that the shirt they tried to link to the rifle wasn't the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning and it had no hole in it's sleeve when he was wearing it in custody, until late Friday evening! It becomes completely stupid when you consider (which you won't do) what the FBI fiber and hair expert testified;

Mr. STOMBAUGH. There is just no way at this time to be able to positively state that a particular small group of fibers came from a particular source, because there just aren't enough microscopic characteristics present in these fibers.
We cannot say, "Yes, these fibers came from this shirt to the exclusion of all other shirts."

The [fill in the blank since you are not a CTer but believe all the evidence is faked] decided to frame Oswald via some shirt fibers which requires the cooperation and lies of a random citizen but then it doesn't link Oswald to the crime.   

I'm already aware of the fact that just about everything I say is way beyond your capacity of comprehension. There is no need to keep on proving that fact time after time....

Btw, where did you get the idiotic notion that I believe all the evidence is faked? Your hysteria is getting the better of you!

So many words.  In a nutshell, you suggest a vast conspiracy to frame Oswald for some unspecified reason and then dispute that the planted evidence links him to the crime.  The sole purpose of such planted evidence. Thus, pursuant to your baseless fantasy some unnamed entity for some unknown reason attempted to framed Oswald via his shirt fibers but then you reject the shirt fibers as linking him to the crime.  It is an Alice in Wonderland narrative.

[Charles Collins]

The time indicated on the DPD recordings and the time recorded independently by the cab dispatcher both indicate that Tippit was not yet at the hospital at 1:15. Yet some believe that a bystander’s wristwatch was correct and that the DPD and the cab company’s time records must be wrong.

When you need to misrepresent the evidence, your argument loses credibility. The real facts are that the times on the DPD recordings are disputed by J.C. Bowles, the supervisor in charge of the dispatchers, in his testimony before the HSCA, and nobody has claimed that "a bystander's wristwatch was correct". Even worse for your basic argument; the time Scoggins gave in his testimony does not match, in any way, shape or form, with the times called out on the DPD radio.
 
Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit shooting?
Mr. Scoggins. When I was down there giving my statement to my supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don’t have any idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said it was 1:23.
Mr. Belin. That is the time that he recorded it?
Mr. Scoggins. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.
Mr. Belin. When you called in after the shooting?
Mr. Scoggins. Yes.

So, Scoggins' supervisor heard from a dispatcher that the time was 1:23. WOW, that's some "ironclad evidence" you've got there.

Now let's see what we can do with this. The timeline I have developed is a sequence of events, with time estimates relative to eachother, based upon the testimony of the people involved which looks like this;

1:03 - 1.04 Markham leaves home at 9th street
1:06 - 1.07 Markham arrives at the corner of 10th street, after having walked one block. She has one more block to go, to
                 Jefferson, where she would arrive at around 1.09 or 1.10, well in time for the 1.12 bus.
1:06 - 1.09 Tippit is shot and killed.
1.10           Bowley arrives at the crime scene after having picked up his daughter from school at 12.55 and driving 7 miles
                 Upon arrival he looks at his watch which says 1.10
1.07 - 1.11 Callaway hears the shots and encounters a man with a revolver running towards him.
1.11           After the encounter, Callaway runs half a block and arrives at 10th street. He gets there after Bowley had already
                 finished operating the police radio
1.11 - 1.13 The ambulance, dispatched from a nearby funeral home on Jefferson, only a block away, arrives and Bowley and
                 Callaway help to put Tippit in the ambulance.
1.15 - 1.16 After a short 2 miles drive, the ambulance arrives at Methodist Hospital followed by Detective Davenport who saw
                 the ambulance and chased it to the hospital
1.16 - 1.17 Tippit - who was likely dead at the scene - is declared DOA @ 1.15

In this timeline, the ambulance arrived between 1.11 and 1.13. Now, if Scoggins' is correct that time would become 1.23, so between 10 to 12 minutes later than what the timeline says. This would mean that all the times in the timeline would have to shift to 10 to 12 minutes later as well.

So, the new timeline would have Markham witness Tippit's shooting somewhere between 1.16 and 1.18 (i.e. two to four minutes later than Myers estimated the time of the shooting at 1.14), instead of being on the bus to work which she estimated she took at 1.15. T.F. Bowley's watch must have been off by 10 to 12 minutes also, which in turn means that he must have picked up his daughter from school, not at 12.55 (like he said), but at 1.05 or even 1.07, and he didn't notice he was 10 to 12 minutes late.

It also means that Callaway would not arrive at the scene of the shooting until 1.21 or 1.23, which is at least strange because according to the DPD radio transcripts (if they are correct) show he made his call to the dispatcher at 1.19. And finally, it would mean that Tippit was declared DOA between 1.29 and 1.30, which in turn means that Dr. Liguori and Detective Davenport got the DOA time wrong by 10 to 12 minutes. It also does not match the DPD radio transcripts, which somewhere between 1.26 and 1.28 report that NBC News is reporting Tippit's DOA. That's really something magical, isn't it?. NBC reporting the DOA before it was actually declared by the doctors! I never knew news outlets in 1963 could work so fast....

And not only that, because it also means that the doctors at Methodist Hospital couldn't have taken a bullet out of Tippit's body (which they did about 15 minutes after DOA) at 1.30.

The 1.23 time that Scoggins gave doesn't match the timecalls on the DPD recording and it makes a complete mess of the timeline.

Why the double standard? You take a bystander’s testimony that he looked at his wristwatch. But you don’t take an eyewitness’ testimony that his supervisor told him the time that his call was recorded?

What you are describing is double hearsay. Scoggins is testifying that his supervisor told him that the dispatcher said that the time was recorded on a time sheet at 1.23.

John has no double standard when he asks for the time sheet, for one simple reason; Scoggins claimed there was a time sheet, so why not produce it?

FWIW, An FBI interview of cab dispatcher D.G. Graham on November 28, 1963 says Graham recorded the call coming in at 1:25 p.m. The two minute discrepancy is probably due to Graham’s desire to notify the DPD before recording the time of the call.

“With Malice” (reference note #399).

It is actually not worth a damned thing. FBI 302 reports contain all sorts of mistakes and conflicting information. For example, there is also a 302 report which claims that Dr. Liguori told an FBI agent that Tippit was DOA at 1.25. The conflict between these two 302 reports is obvious, but there is more;

First of all, how can the dispatcher tell Scoggins' supervisor that the time was recorded on his time sheet at 1.23, and then tell the FBI it was actually 1.25? Secondly, when the time given by Scoggins already doesn't match any of the known facts in the time line, the time Graham gave to the FBI surely doesn't match either. And thirdly, by 1.25 police officers were already on the scene and the DPD radio transcript shows (if they are correct) that the dispatcher has already received a report about a white jacket that was found on a parking lot.

It's a pretty good bet that the time Scoggins gave was wrong. If you disagree, feel free to tell me where I went wrong in my reasoning.

What route did Bowley take from the school to the Tippit murder scene?

[Martin Weidmann]

So many words.  In a nutshell, you suggest a vast conspiracy to frame Oswald for some unspecified reason and then dispute that the planted evidence links him to the crime.  The sole purpose of such planted evidence. Thus, pursuant to your baseless fantasy some unnamed entity for some unknown reason attempted to framed Oswald via his shirt fibers but then you reject the shirt fibers as linking him to the crime.  It is an Alice in Wonderland narrative.

So many words.

Something you can't deal with, right? You need small portions to be able to understand.

In a nutshell, you suggest a vast conspiracy to frame Oswald for some unspecified reason

No, that's your nutshell, with the emphasis on the three first letters in the word.

then dispute that the planted evidence links him to the crime.

Planted or not, if you are talking about the rifle, let's say that he did buy it (which although possible is by no means certain) and was photographed with it in April 1963. That doesn't mean that he was the shooter in November 1963.

some unnamed entity for some unknown reason attempted to framed Oswald via his shirt fibers but then you reject the shirt fibers as linking him to the crime. 

It wasn't an "unnamed entity"... It was the Warren Commission and Hoover's boys, who only had one task; to "prove" to the people that Oswald (who was already dead) had been the sole gunman. Remember the Katzenbach memo? Who was it again who said; we need to wrap this thing around Oswald as tight was we can.

John Adams said "facts are stubborn things" and he was right.

Fact: Oswald's arrest shirt was sent to the FBI lab, on Friday night, together with the rifle
Fact: No other shirt was ever sent to the FBI
Fact: On none of the photos taken of Oswald in which he was wearing that shirt, before it went to Washington, damage to a sleeve can be seen
Fact: After Oswald's death, the FBI found some fibers on the rifle which were similar to those of the shirt they had received.
Fact: When detectives took the arrest shirt to Bledsoe's house, in December 1963, it suddenly had a hole in it's sleeve.
Fact: Bledsoe had not said anything about the shirt or the hole in the sleeve in her Affidavit
Fact: Bledsoe told the WC in her testimony that she recognized the shirt because he [Oswald] was wearing it before he was shot. Despite the notes she brough with he, she does not mention anywhere in her testimony that she saw Oswald wear the shirt on the bus....

I'll leave it to you to do the math.... but you won't, because law enforcement officers never ever create evidence against a suspect they "know" is guilty when they lack the evidence to prove it, right?

It is an Alice in Wonderland narrative.

I wouldn't know. You're the expert on Alice in Wonderland...
 

[Martin Weidmann]

What route did Bowley take from the school to the Tippit murder scene?

He didn't say, but I seem to recall that he mentioned being om Marsalis coming into 10th street.

There are two options; he could have taken the I-35E or S. Marsalis Ave. The driving time for both is roughly the same, but as he was en route to pick up his wife from work, I would suggest that he likely took the I-35E and then turn onto N. Marsalis Ave when he reached Jefferson. But that's a guess...

I am not sure where you are going with this, but the fact that Bowley arrived just after Tippit was shot can not be denied, simply because Callaway, who was only half a block away, arrived on 10th street after Bowley had already used the radio and the two men helped to put Tippit in the ambulance. So, it doesn't really matter which route Bowley took, because Callaway confirmed Bowley was there before he arrived.

I'm answering your questions, so why don't you return the favor by addressing some of the points I have raised re the time Scoggins gave?

[Martin Weidmann]

Let me catch you up: Martin P. Weidmann has never stated anything even remotely brilliant. Or even anywhere close to clever, for that matter. Additionally, I recently outed him as to what he really is, to the point of him 'steering' himself into the ditch and out the door... as is always his fate whenever he attempts to get around me.

[Charles Collins]

He didn't say, but I seem to recall that he mentioned being om Marsalis coming into 10th street.

There are two options; he could have taken the I-35E or S. Marsalis Ave. The driving time for both is roughly the same, but as he was en route to pick up his wife from work, I would suggest that he likely took the I-35E and then turn onto N. Marsalis Ave.

I am not sure where you are going with this, but the fact that Bowley arrived just after Tippit was shot can not be denied, simply because Callaway, who was only half a block away, arrived on 10th street after Bowley had already used the radio and the two men helped to put Tippit in the ambulance. So, it doesn't really matter which route Bowley took, because Callaway confirmed he was there before he arrived.

I'm answering your questions, so why don't you return the favor by addressing some of the points I have raised re the time Scoggins gave?

There are two options; he could have taken the I-35E or S. Marsalis Ave.

Looking at a map of Dallas dated 1962 shows that I-35 was under construction in the area of Clarendon Drive and only proposed (not yet under construction) south of that area. Therefore, I submit that Bowley probably took Marsalis Ave. A check of google maps shows this route takes about 17 minutes. Your arithmetic doesn’t work so well now, does it?