The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

This is called impeaching your own witness. After telling us how accurately Woodward remembered exactly what happened, now you tell us she got mixed up.

No. I just asked the question: “ She just got mixed up thinking that it was before the first shot?”.  The part before the ? seems to be what you are saying.  The obvious answer would be: “not likely”. It’s a rhetorical device.

There's a compelling argument. I've never disputed that JFK turned to Woodward and friends. What is in dispute is when that happened in relation to the first shot. If she was mixed up, how can you rely on her to determine when the first shot was fired.

You need to read more carefully. It is you, not me, who thinks she is mixed up on that.

Your  theory he wasn't hit until about Z270 was one of the goofiest things I've ever read regarding the JFKA. It's exceeded only by Benjamin Cole's claim that JBC wasn't hit until Z295. What the hell are you two looking at when you watch the Z-film?

I am just pointing out that there is an awful lot of evidence that the second and third shots were in rapid succession with the second after the midpoint between 1 and 3.  To fit the evidence the second must have struck JBC around z270. There are many other pieces of evidence that support a second shot striking JBC there.  I didn’t manufacture the evidence. It’s there.  I am just pointing it out.

[John Corbett]

No. I just asked the question: “ She just got mixed up thinking that it was before the first shot?”.  The part before the ? seems to be what you are saying.  The obvious answer would be: “not likely”. It’s a rhetorical device.
You need to read more carefully. It is you, not me, who thinks she is mixed up on that.
I am just pointing out that there is an awful lot of evidence that the second and third shots were in rapid succession with the second after the midpoint between 1 and 3.  To fit the evidence the second must have struck JBC around z270. There are many other pieces of evidence that support a second shot striking JBC there.  I didn’t manufacture the evidence. It’s there.  I am just pointing it out.

OK. I'll give you this one. I didn't notice the question mark at the end of your sentence.

That doesn't change the fact that this is still the kind of mistake witnesses make when they try to piece together what happened from memory. She had no reason at the time to make a mental note of whether the first shot was fired before or after JFK turned to look to her. So taking your sentence as a question rather than a statement, my answer is yes, she got mixed up. We are talking about two events that occurred a little more than a second apart. Furthermore, when she got back to the DMN offices to write her account of the shooting, her colleagues described her as hysterical and she was given a tranquilizer before writing her account of the shooting. A perfectly understandable reaction to seeing the POTUS getting his brains blown out in front of her. She also said the shots came from over her right shoulder, i.e. the GK. Do you believe that part too?

https://kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Whitmey/Witness.html

This is why I don't trust the eyewitness accounts. These people were already excited about seeing the POTUS up close and then suddenly, without warning, gunfire erupts. they see the POTUS slump over, and then less than five seconds later, they see his head explode. I think it would be very difficult for anyone to piece the details together of exactly what they saw and the order in which it occurred.

As for you insistence that the last 2 shots came in rapid succession, if that were true, there were two gunmen. The Carcano was not designed to fire two shots in rapid succession. The FBI determined it would take a minimum of 2.3 seconds between shots to fire an aimed shot. That is the theoretical minimum. If you actually are trying to hit a target, you wouldn't be trying to fire the rifle that rapidly. You would put the cross hairs on your aim point and keep it there while you put a slow steady squeeze on the trigger. The Z-film tells us there were almost 5 seconds between the last two shots. That is not rapid succession. Some even described the last two shots as being almost on top of each other. That certainly isn't two shots from the Carcano. What I suspect those people heard were two separate sounds from the same shot. Maybe an echo. Maybe the sonic boom from the bullet passing above them. Maybe the impact on JFK's skull. All of these sounds can be quite loud and be mistaken for a separate shot and they would all seem to be right on top of the muzzle blast. In fact, they would hear that sound first. I have experienced this phenomenon myself on a number of occasions. I have a neighbor who fires a muzzle loading rifle. There's no chance of firing two rapid fire shots, but when he's taking target practice, I sometimes hear a double sound, like two shots right on top of each other.

[Andrew Mason]

OK. I'll give you this one. I didn't notice the question mark at the end of your sentence.

It happens.

That doesn't change the fact that this is still the kind of mistake witnesses make when they try to piece together what happened from memory. She had no reason at the time to make a mental note of whether the first shot was fired before or after JFK turned to look to her. So taking your sentence as a question rather than a statement, my answer is yes, she got mixed up. We are talking about two events that occurred a little more than a second apart. 

But it wasn’t just Mary Woodward. There are at least 23 witnesses who recalled JFK reacting to the first shot. There are another 20+ witnesses who put the first shot occurring:

• after z180 (occupants of VP car, VP security car);
• as the car was approaching the Thornton sign (TE Moore);
• when JFK was passing the Stemmons sign in her line of sight (Linda Willis);
  
• an instant before z202 (Phil Willis);
  
• just as the President’s car was almost directly in front of where is was standing (Karan Hicks, Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook)
  
• the President had just passed me (Jean Newman);
• just as he got just about in front of me (John Chism)
  

She also said the shots came from over her right shoulder, i.e. the GK. Do you believe that part too?

Direction of the source of a sound is not easy for humans to observe. Perception is also skewed by the proximity of reflective surfaces. You are comparing apples and watermelons (oranges are not an apt comparison to fit this metaphor).

As for you insistence that the last 2 shots came in rapid succession, if that were true, there were two gunmen. The Carcano was not designed to fire two shots in rapid succession. The FBI determined it would take a minimum of 2.3 seconds between shots to fire an aimed shot.

Humans are not clocks. The evidence does not require the last two shots being closer than 2.3 seconds apart.

[John Corbett]

It happens.

But it wasn’t just Mary Woodward. There are at least 23 witnesses who recalled JFK reacting to the first shot. There are another 20+ witnesses who put the first shot occurring:

• after z180 (occupants of VP car, VP security car);
• as the car was approaching the Thornton sign (TE Moore);
• when JFK was passing the Stemmons sign in her line of sight (Linda Willis);
  
• an instant before z202 (Phil Willis);
  
• just as the President’s car was almost directly in front of where is was standing (Karan Hicks, Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook)
  
• the President had just passed me (Jean Newman);
• just as he got just about in front of me (John Chism)
  

Direction of the source of a sound is not easy for humans to observe. Perception is also skewed by the proximity of reflective surfaces. You are comparing apples and watermelons (oranges are not an apt comparison to fit this metaphor).

Humans are not clocks. The evidence does not require the last two shots being closer than 2.3 seconds apart.

For every witness you named, I can name a witness who gave a different version. You continue to rely on witnesses accurately remembering the event instead of believing what can be seen in the Z-film with your own two eyes. The fact that you continue to insist JBC wasn't hit until Z270 is a joke. He reacts at exactly the same instant that JFK did.