The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

Stop being coy.

What "point" are you trying to make?

The point is that between z202-z205 she turns her head so that her hood opening moves from facing to her right to facing behind her.  She makes no turn of head prior to that. By itself that may not signify much.  However, her sister gave evidence that the first shot occurred when JFK was between her and the Stemmons sign (z195-z205). Betzner said it was just after his z186 photo. Her father said it was just before his z202 photo. Other witnesses in the motorcade put the first shot at that time.  JFK appears to change after z193.

You are suggesting that she is looking behind her prior to z202 even though her hood is facing to her right.  Since we can’t see her face we can’t be sure where her eyes are looking. But if she is looking behind her to the TSBD at z145-z202 why would she then turn farther to her right rear at z202? She said she turned to look back at the TSBD upon hearing the first shot.

[Tom Graves]

The point is that between Z-202 and Z-205, Rosemary Willis turns her head so that her hood opening moves from facing to her right to facing behind her.

So?

She makes no turn of head prior to that.

She starts turning her head in the general direction of the TSBD in Z-140, about one second after Oswald's first, missing everything, shot at "Z-124."

You are suggesting that she is looking behind her prior to Z-202 even though her hood is facing to her right.

Your sentence makes no sense.

I'm suggesting that Rosemary Willis is looking not at the limo, but in the general direction of the TSBD from Z-145 to Z-214 -- as Charles Collins has pointed out in the new poll on the subject -- at which time, 3.8 seconds later, she finally snaps her head to her left and starts looking at the limo.

Since we can’t see her face we can’t be sure where her eyes are looking.

Correct, but we can see that she's not looking at the limo; we can see that she's looking in the general direction of the TSBD.

If she is looking behind her [at] the TSBD [in] Z-145 - Z-202, why would she then turn farther to her right rear at Z-202?

Perhaps I should have said, "She's looking in the general direction of the TSBD from Z-145 (at least) to Z-214."

Does that work for you?

[Andrew Mason]

So?

She starts turning her head in the general direction of the TSBD in Z-140, about one second after Oswald's first, missing everything, shot at "Z-124."

Here is Rosemary Willis when she first appears in Dorman 23, well before Zapruder started his last sequence:


She is already facing toward the limo AND the TSBD because the limo is just turning the corner.   Then as she starts running she turns to look in the direction she is running as seen in Dorman 48:


and turns her head toward the car when she is almost in front of the steps in Doorman 57 and 58 (which is well before z140):
I can't tell where she is looking in z140 but she could be looking in the same direction as she was in Dorman 58.


Here are those locations and positions plotted onto an overhead map of Dealey Plaza (Trask, cover):

I'm suggesting that Rosemary Willis is looking not at the limo, but in the general direction of the TSBD from Z-145 to Z-214 -- as Charles Collins has pointed out in the new poll on the subject -- at which time, 3.8 seconds later, she finally snaps her head to her left and starts looking at the limo.

Correct, but we can see that she's not looking at the limo; we can see that she's looking in the general direction of the TSBD.

Perhaps I should have said, "She's looking in the general direction of the TSBD from Z-145 (at least) to Z-214."

Does that work for you?

Not when the positions are shown on an accurate map of DP.  She is only looking toward the SE corner of the TSBD after z202. You don't seem to want to acknowledge her distinct head turn to her right from z202 to z206.

[Tom Graves]

Rosemary Willis is only looking toward the SE corner of the TSBD after z202.

Nice try, but I'm not saying she was looking specifically at the south-east corner sixth floor of the TSBD from Z-145 to Z-214.

I'm saying she was looking in the general direction of the TSBD, not at the limo -- which, according to Mark Tyler's motorcade animation, was a car-length farther down Elm Street than she was at Z-145.

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg

Therefore, you've got your "plane of hood opening" turned too far in Zapruder's direction at Z-145 -- it doesn't correlate with what we see in his film.

You don't seem to want to acknowledge her distinct head turn to her right from z202 to z206.

The fact that Rosemary Willis turned her head even farther to her right between Z-202 and Z-206 suggests that she, like everyone else who'd heard a "firecracker" or a shot at "Z-124" was still trying to locate the source of the sound.


Rhetorical question:

Do you think she was looking at the limo in Z-201?

LOL!

[Andrew Mason]

Nice try, but I'm not saying she was looking specifically at the south-east corner sixth floor of the TSBD from Z-145 to Z-214.

I'm saying she was looking in the general direction of the TSBD, not at the limo -- which, according to Mark Tyler's motorcade animation, was a car-length farther down Elm Street than she was at Z-145.

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg

Therefore, you've got your "plane of hood opening" turned too far in Zapruder's direction at Z-145 -- it doesn't correlate with what we see in his film.

You think that her head is turned more than 90 degrees to her shoulders?

 
How much more than 90 degrees? Can you turn your head more than 90 degrees to your shoulders? I can’t. Just based on the zfilm alone, do you think the possibility that she is looking at the President’s car is excluded?

Robert Croft would take his z161 photo about a second later.  He said he had enough time after that photo for him to wind his film before the first shot sounded.  I guess he and Betzner completely missed that first horrible ear-shattering noise at z124.

Rhetorical question:

Do you think she was looking at the limo in Z-201?

She may have given up looking at the President by then. The car was too far ahead and watching the backs of their heads may not have been that exciting for her. She may have been watching other cars in the motorcade for a second or so before z199, which is when she stops moving.  At z201 she is probably processing the loud sound she had heard about half a second earlier and is about to turn her head in her perceived direction of the sound and see pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD..

[Andrew Mason]

I'm saying she was looking in the general direction of the TSBD, not at the limo -- which, according to Mark Tyler's motorcade animation, was a car-length farther down Elm Street than she was at Z-145.

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawK4zONleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFFODdsRHVIa2RSUGZJNllFAR6Zx-0JB5zBmwy-qakJKtfLfY5vcW9V2IqOrNXjP-oezkHhb-av38NlRUa-uA_aem_2d95NRPz2dpt6k_03l7iYg

I am not seeing that at all in Mark Tyler’s animation. Here is the frame showing Rosemary Willis (circle no. 50) in the position seen in Z145.  The President’s car is right along side where she is standing.

[Tom Graves]

You think that her head is turned more than 90 degrees to her shoulders? How much more than 90 degrees? Can you turn your head more than 90 degrees to your shoulders? I can’t.

Why would that be necessary in order to look away from the limo and back in the general direction of the TSBD?

Just based on the Zapruder film alone, do you think the possibility that she is looking at the President’s car is excluded?

I wouldn't be saying what I am (that she's looking in the general direction of the TSBD) if I thought otherwise.

D'oh!

Robert Croft would take his z161 photo about a second later.  He said he had enough time after that photo for him to wind his film before the first shot sounded.  I guess he and Betzner completely missed that first horrible ear-shattering noise at "Z-124."

Some witnesses said it sounded muffled (which makes sense given the fact that it was a steeply-downward-angled shot which required Oswald's having the muzzle of his short-rifle inside the building).

I guess it depended on whether or not one discounted the sound as yet another motorcycle backfire and/or where one was standing or riding in a motorcade car at the time.

She may have given up looking at the President by then. The car was too far ahead and watching the backs of their heads may not have been that exciting for her.

Why did she snap her head to her left and finally start looking at the limo around Z-214?

https://www.jfk-online.com/rosemary-willis-stop-dunckel-2.gif

Answer: Because it was her dream to catch a glimpse of JFK and Jackie, and the sound of Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot at "Z-124" had distracted her for 3.8 seconds from doing that.

She may have been watching other cars in the motorcade for a second or so before z199, which is when she stops moving.

LOL!

At z201 she is probably processing the loud sound she had heard about half a second earlier and is about to turn her head in her perceived direction of the sound and see pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD.

Yeah, sure.

[Tom Graves]

I am not seeing that at all in Mark Tyler’s animation. Here is the frame showing Rosemary Willis (circle no. 50) in the position seen in Z145.  The President’s car is right along side where she is standing.

Funny, the closest I'm able to click-click it to Z-145 is Z-145.3, and at that point the rear end of the limo is a couple of inches farther down Elm Street than she is.

Regardless, here's a question for you:

Do you think Robert Croft was looking at Jackie in Z-145?

If so, why is Rosemary Willis' head turned farther to the right than his?