The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

Even the faulty re-enactment shows the back of the car behind JFK to be quite visible at z207. You seem hung up on using the May 24, 1964 foliage. It was materially different in November 63 as we see in the 1963 film.

Firstly, I posted this:

"The point of the Willis photo being at z202 is that it must have been a response to a shot in the late z190's, a time when JFK is travelling behind the oak tree. The re-enactment may not be accurate by a frame or two but you would have to clearly demonstrate the gross inaccuracies you are suggesting. I would suggest the re-enactment is not so faulty as to have JFK clear of the tree by z200."

No mention of foliage, just that the limo is travelling behind the oak tree at the time you would have the assassin shooting, something that makes no sense, but you're right, the foliage is materially different between Dec '63 and May '64 - the foliage is thicker in Dec '63, indicating the foliage would have been far thicker at the time of the assassination than the '64 re-enactment. Something that makes your case even weaker:

Dec '63


May '64

It shows that the JFK stand-in was clear of the tree when he was opposite or perhaps a few feet past the lampost and the front of the stand-in car (about 10 feet in front of the JFK stand-in) was even with the Thornton Freeway sign. Plot that on a scale map of Dealey Plaza and tell me what frame that corresponds to.  I say the lamppost was at z190 and the sign at z200:

I say the lamppost was at z190 and the sign at z200:

What are you basing this on?

  There is not much activity but it is hard to see. SA Jack Ready on the right front running board of the QM has his right hand securely placed on the front handhold up to z198. By z207 is it down by his right side and he has turned noticeably toward the right. That is half a second. He said he immediately turned to his right after hearing the first shot. But we don't see Ready or any other agents after z207 except SA Landis and SA Hill.  Landis on the left rear running board is looking down and to the left at z223 if not before.   He said he did this after the first shot to check to see if a tire had blown. Hill said he was looking at the President after the first shot, which is consistent with what we see until he disappears from the sproket image.

Firstly, Ready does not say he turns to the right after hearing the first shot. He says he turns right rear, something very different. You would have Ready turns slightly to his right, a position he spends most of his time looking (in the Z-film at least) as a result of the shot but he specifically states he looks behind him, as we see in Altgens 6. This movement is not shown in the Z-film.
Secondly, the guy on the left rear running board is SA McIntyre and he says nothing of the sort.

JFK was on a line perpendicular to the north curb at the position of the Chisms at about z235. John Chism said (19H471):
"And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one  shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side."

We can see that JFK turned and waved to the right side of the street at around z180.  So John Chism is actually saying the first shot was at about that point, z180.  z195-200 is a better fit than z223 to John Chism's statement.Correct. He was giving his opinion of the frames when the second shot hit him. He was not questioned, however, on where he did his turn around to see JFK before that.  That is unfortunate. 

Chism is clearly talking about the first shot at z225, how you've managed to turn that into the second shot is baffling. You need to read through it again.

Ok. Tell us where the medical evidence shows that the bullet went through the lung or even the pleural cavity.

?? Who mentioned anything about lungs or pleural cavities? What are you talking about? How does this refute the near impossibility of the wounds caused by a shot at z271.
Again, things are getting a bit baffling.

At that point the car is pointing 30 degrees to a line from Zapruder and it appears to me that JBC's chest is more or less facing Zapruder, probably about the 2 o'clock position relative to car forward (Zapruder is a 1 o'clock=30 degrees). So that would make the turn about 60 degrees from forward, not 90.

"At that point the car is pointing 30 degrees to a line from Zapruder"

What are you basing this on?

??. Where do you think the right wrist is?  The bullet caught the end of his jacket cuff.  The end of his jacket cuff is right over his right breast pocket in z271 as far as I can tell.

I see it in the centre of his chest. Note the unnatural angle of his hand at the wrist strongly suggesting his wrist has already been hit.

Initially Tague, when asked, was not sure.  But on reflection he said there was a shot after he was hit. Check his testimony:
James Tague 7H555:
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn’t say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

As I said - "Tague isn't that sure if he was hit by the second or third shot."

[Dan O'meara]

At that point the car is pointing 30 degrees to a line from Zapruder and it appears to me that JBC's chest is more or less facing Zapruder, probably about the 2 o'clock position relative to car forward (Zapruder is a 1 o'clock=30 degrees). So that would make the turn about 60 degrees from forward, not 90.

At z272 the limo is pointing 72-degrees relative to a line to Zapruder, not 30-degrees. And it is difficult to understand how you arrived at 60 degrees from forward if you believe JBC’s chest is facing Zapruder and Zapruder is at 1:00. Then you say Zapruder is at the 2-o’clock position which is 60-degrees. That is closer to the actual 72-degrees. But still a bit off. The bullet would have to be deflected about 72-degrees by the collision with the rib bone in order to exit near the nipple. Is that what you believe happened?

This is based on JBC directly facing Zapruder but if you look at the pic posted above, the left shirt collar of JBC is clearly visible while the right shirt collar is only partially visible indicating JBC is turned further to his left than is being accounted for.

[Andrew Mason]

At that point the car is pointing 30 degrees to a line from Zapruder and it appears to me that JBC's chest is more or less facing Zapruder, probably about the 2 o'clock position relative to car forward (Zapruder is a 1 o'clock=30 degrees). So that would make the turn about 60 degrees from forward, not 90.

At z272 the limo is pointing 72-degrees relative to a line to Zapruder, not 30-degrees. And it is difficult to understand how you arrived at 60 degrees from forward if you believe JBC’s chest is facing Zapruder and Zapruder is at 1:00. Then you say Zapruder is at the 2-o’clock position which is 60-degrees. That is closer to the actual 72-degrees. But still a bit off. The bullet would have to be deflected about 72-degrees by the collision with the rib bone in order to exit near the nipple. Is that what you believe happened?

You are right.  At z272 the angle of Zapruder to the perpendicular to the car path is about 18-20 degrees so your 72 degrees is about right.  I had in mind a 30 degree angle but that was the angle at z190.  So JBC is a bit past 72 degrees but the plane of his chest (ie. the perpendicular from the chest surface) is not as much as 90 degrees to the direction of the car.

As far as the path of the bullet striking JBC:
1. it struck the fifth rib in the back close to the axilla (armpit) and imparted a significant impact that JBC described as a hard punch from about 12 inches away.
2. The impact indicates that the bullet lost some momentum on hitting the fifth rib.  So it either slowed suddenly or changed direction suddenly or a combination of both.
3. The bullet destroyed the last 10 cm or 4 inches of the lateral and anterior (front) portion of the right fifth rib and emerged just below and slightly medial to the right nipple.   The point of impact on the fifth rib was more than 10 cm from the end of the rib.
One can conclude from that that the bullet did not destroy the fifth rib at the point of initial contact.
4. In destroying the last 10 cm of rib the bullet drove shards of rib bone down into the lower lobe of the right lung.  That means that the bullet drove bone fragments inward.
5.  The bullet did not penetrate the lung.

From the medical evidence, the bullet followed along the fifth rib for a few inches before smashing through it which is consistent with some deflection of either the rib (to the left) and the bullet (to the right) or a combination of both upon impact.  It exited just below the right nipple. Twist your torso around like that and you can easily see a path along the rib and exiting just below the right nipple that does not pass through the lung. In fact it is much harder to make that path work on a shot from the SN at z225 with JBC facing forward without passing through the chest/lung.  When he is twisted right, the right nipple is essentially on the side and the point below and slightly medial to it almost aligns with the back entry point on a line with a shot directly from the rear without going through much if any of the pleural cavity. So there would only have to be very slight deflection of a few degrees. Try it (minus the bullet from the rear).

[Charles Collins]

You are right.  At z272 the angle of Zapruder to the perpendicular to the car path is about 18-20 degrees so your 72 degrees is about right.  I had in mind a 30 degree angle but that was the angle at z190.  So JBC is a bit past 72 degrees but the plane of his chest (ie. the perpendicular from the chest surface) is not as much as 90 degrees to the direction of the car.

As far as the path of the bullet striking JBC:
1. it struck the fifth rib in the back close to the axilla (armpit) and imparted a significant impact that JBC described as a hard punch from about 12 inches away.
2. The impact indicates that the bullet lost some momentum on hitting the fifth rib.  So it either slowed suddenly or changed direction suddenly or a combination of both.
3. The bullet destroyed the last 10 cm or 4 inches of the lateral and anterior (front) portion of the right fifth rib and emerged just below and slightly medial to the right nipple.   The point of impact on the fifth rib was more than 10 cm from the end of the rib.
One can conclude from that that the bullet did not destroy the fifth rib at the point of initial contact.
4. In destroying the last 10 cm of rib the bullet drove shards of rib bone down into the lower lobe of the right lung.  That means that the bullet drove bone fragments inward.
5.  The bullet did not penetrate the lung.

From the medical evidence, the bullet followed along the fifth rib for a few inches before smashing through it which is consistent with some deflection of either the rib (to the left) and the bullet (to the right) or a combination of both upon impact.  It exited just below the right nipple. Twist your torso around like that and you can easily see a path along the rib and exiting just below the right nipple that does not pass through the lung. In fact it is much harder to make that path work on a shot from the SN at z225 with JBC facing forward without passing through the chest/lung.  When he is twisted right, the right nipple is essentially on the side and the point below and slightly medial to it almost aligns with the back entry point on a line with a shot directly from the rear without going through much if any of the pleural cavity. So there would only have to be very slight deflection of a few degrees. Try it (minus the bullet from the rear).

It appears to me that at Z272 the limo was traveling in a line close to directly away from the sniper's nest window. Therefore the path of the bullet would have been roughly parallel to the back to front centerline of the limo. If JBC was turned with a line perpendicular to the plane of his chest at 72-degrees (your apparent opinion) from straight forward (in relation to the limo) and a bullet hit him in the back near the right armpit and continued to travel in a straight line, it would exit on the left side of his chest after probably going through his heart. That didn't happen, the bullet exit wound is near his right nipple. Therefore the bullet wouldn't have been slightly deflected as you apparently believe. It would have had to have been deflected around 60-degrees.

Here is Dale Meyers' animation at Z224. (Note that the limo is not traveling directly away from the sniper's nest window at that point, so the path of the bullet is at a corresponding angle instead of straight in line with the limo direction as it was at Z272.) I don't remember the precise angle that Meyers calculated that JBC is turned to the right from straight forward. But eyeballing it, I get around 30-degrees. You have stated that you believe JBC is turned somewhere around 72-degrees. This is approximately an additional (42-degrees minus the change in the relative bullet path to the limo, lets just say around 35-degrees) to the right. And if your theory that the bullet hit JBC in the back at his right armpit area then this would require that the bullet was deflected an additional 35-degrees to the right (from the slight deflection that Meyers calculated) in order to exit JBC where it did (in the right nipple area). Is this what you believe happened?

[Dan O'meara]

You are right.  At z272 the angle of Zapruder to the perpendicular to the car path is about 18-20 degrees so your 72 degrees is about right.  I had in mind a 30 degree angle but that was the angle at z190.  So JBC is a bit past 72 degrees but the plane of his chest (ie. the perpendicular from the chest surface) is not as much as 90 degrees to the direction of the car.

As far as the path of the bullet striking JBC:
1. it struck the fifth rib in the back close to the axilla (armpit) and imparted a significant impact that JBC described as a hard punch from about 12 inches away.
2. The impact indicates that the bullet lost some momentum on hitting the fifth rib.  So it either slowed suddenly or changed direction suddenly or a combination of both.
3. The bullet destroyed the last 10 cm or 4 inches of the lateral and anterior (front) portion of the right fifth rib and emerged just below and slightly medial to the right nipple.   The point of impact on the fifth rib was more than 10 cm from the end of the rib.
One can conclude from that that the bullet did not destroy the fifth rib at the point of initial contact.
4. In destroying the last 10 cm of rib the bullet drove shards of rib bone down into the lower lobe of the right lung.  That means that the bullet drove bone fragments inward.
5.  The bullet did not penetrate the lung.

From the medical evidence, the bullet followed along the fifth rib for a few inches before smashing through it which is consistent with some deflection of either the rib (to the left) and the bullet (to the right) or a combination of both upon impact.  It exited just below the right nipple. Twist your torso around like that and you can easily see a path along the rib and exiting just below the right nipple that does not pass through the lung. In fact it is much harder to make that path work on a shot from the SN at z225 with JBC facing forward without passing through the chest/lung.  When he is twisted right, the right nipple is essentially on the side and the point below and slightly medial to it almost aligns with the back entry point on a line with a shot directly from the rear without going through much if any of the pleural cavity. So there would only have to be very slight deflection of a few degrees. Try it (minus the bullet from the rear).

The angle that JBC is turned to Zapruder is not the issue.
The issue is how JBC is turned in relation to the shooter in the sniper's nest.
The pic below is taken from Speer's website and a discussion of the SBT.
It is a fair representation of the relative positions of JFK, JBC and the trajectory of a shot from the TSBD.
Obviously, as the limo travels on to z271 these positions will change slightly but the pic is useful to demonstrate two things:



Firstly, around z271 JBC is turned far more to his right than in the pic above, so much so that the plane of JBC's body, shoulder to shoulder, would be more or less in line with the trajectory of the bullet making a shot entering JBC's back, at the armpit, very unlikely:



But that's not the important point. If you look at the trajectory of the bullet it is moving away from JBC at the time of impact.
The shot fired from the TSBD is moving laterally from right to left as it travels towards the limo. If, by some very unlikely circumstance, the bullet did strike the armpit area of JBC it would be moving right to left - away from JBC's body.
Rather than blowing out his spinal column we are being asked to believe the bullet, moving away from his body, would somehow have all the force transferred into a left to right motion through JBC's body.
Also, just from eye-balling the above diagram, the bullet would have to make an almost 90 degree turn to pass through JBC's torso, exiting the right side of his chest.
We are in dreamland now.
Finally, this mage from z280 - a full half second after supposedly being shot through the chest, smashing a rib and blowing splinters into his lung - JBC is still in the same position, looking towards JFK.
Do we really have to continue with this?

[Andrew Mason]

The angle that JBC is turned to Zapruder is not the issue.

?? Of course it is not THE issue. It is a useful tool to measure the amount of turn that JBC has from facing forward.

The issue is how JBC is turned in relation to the shooter in the sniper's nest.

Right. And that depends on the frame. And if we measure the angle to Zapruder on that frame we can use that as a reference. For example, at z271 JBC is turned a few degrees further right than facing Zapruder.  Zapruder is 72 degrees to the JBC face- forward direction (car direction).

The pic below is taken from Speer's website and a discussion of the SBT.
It is a fair representation of the relative positions of JFK, JBC and the trajectory of a shot from the TSBD.
Obviously, as the limo travels on to z271 these positions will change slightly but the pic is useful to demonstrate two things:

There are several problems if that is supposed to depict an SBT shot. The path through JBC exiting just below and slightly medial to the right nipple requires a significant right turn to avoid the lung and exiting through his sternum. Then it has to strike the right radius, pass through the wrist and deflect sharp left to then strike the left thigh and make a tangential wound in the direction of the femur.  It certainly does not work with that posture.

Also, JBC is not turned like that at z223. He is facing more or less forward. So to have the path through JFK align with the entry wound on JBC you have to move JBC so his right armpit is left of the middle of the jump seat.

Finally, this depicts JFK extremely far to the right with his ribs pressed against the inside panel of the car.  But that is not what he is doing in z224.  He has moved well away from the wall and has his hands at his neck. (which also makes it hard for the bullet exiting his neck to miss them, but that is a minor detail).

Firstly, around z271 JBC is turned far more to his right than in the pic above, so much so that the plane of JBC's body, shoulder to shoulder, would be more or less in line with the trajectory of the bullet making a shot entering JBC's back, at the armpit, very unlikely:

But that's not the important point. If you look at the trajectory of the bullet it is moving away from JBC at the time of impact.
The shot fired from the TSBD is moving laterally from right to left as it travels towards the limo. If, by some very unlikely circumstance, the bullet did strike the armpit area of JBC it would be moving right to left - away from JBC's body.

Why?  At z271 the car has travelled farther along the curve and is moving almost directly away from the SN.

Rather than blowing out his spinal column we are being asked to believe the bullet, moving away from his body, would somehow have all the force transferred into a left to right motion through JBC's body.

No. It would transfer forward momentum in the direction of the bullet.  JBC described a forceful impact. Nellie observed JBC move from the impact.  We can see JBC sail forward (the only person moving) from z272 to z278 when he starts to fall back onto Nellie.

Also, just from eye-balling the above diagram, the bullet would have to make an almost 90 degree turn to pass through JBC's torso, exiting the right side of his chest.

I don't know why you would think that.  It followed along the fifth rib for a few inches.  The bullet did not pass through the lung. It passed around the lung.

Finally, this mage from z280 - a full half second after supposedly being shot through the chest, smashing a rib and blowing splinters into his lung - JBC is still in the same position, looking towards JFK.

That is a bit less than half a second. He said he felt no pain.  Are you saying that he should have reacted? Besides, you seem to think he assumed that position and was looking toward JFK for the previous 3 seconds after being hit.

[Dan O'meara]

?? Of course it is not THE issue. It is a useful tool to measure the amount of turn that JBC has from facing forward.Right. And that depends on the frame. And if we measure the angle to Zapruder on that frame we can use that as a reference. For example, at z271 JBC is turned a few degrees further right than facing Zapruder.  Zapruder is 72 degrees to the JBC face- forward direction (car direction).
There are several problems if that is supposed to depict an SBT shot. The path through JBC exiting just below and slightly medial to the right nipple requires a significant right turn to avoid the lung and exiting through his sternum. Then it has to strike the right radius, pass through the wrist and deflect sharp left to then strike the left thigh and make a tangential wound in the direction of the femur.  It certainly does not work with that posture.

Also, JBC is not turned like that at z223. He is facing more or less forward. So to have the path through JFK align with the entry wound on JBC you have to move JBC so his right armpit is left of the middle of the jump seat.

Finally, this depicts JFK extremely far to the right with his ribs pressed against the inside panel of the car.  But that is not what he is doing in z224.  He has moved well away from the wall and has his hands at his neck. (which also makes it hard for the bullet exiting his neck to miss them, but that is a minor detail).
Why?  At z271 the car has travelled farther along the curve and is moving almost directly away from the SN. No. It would transfer forward momentum in the direction of the bullet.  JBC described a forceful impact. Nellie observed JBC move from the impact.  We can see JBC sail forward (the only person moving) from z272 to z278 when he starts to fall back onto Nellie.I don't know why you would think that.  It followed along the fifth rib for a few inches.  The bullet did not pass through the lung. It passed around the lung.
That is a bit less than half a second. He said he felt no pain.  Are you saying that he should have reacted? Besides, you seem to think he assumed that position and was looking toward JFK for the previous 3 seconds after being hit.

If I'd known Charles was posting at the same time I would have left it to him as he deals with this issue far better than I can.
Would you like to address the points Charles makes?

[Charles Collins]

If I'd known Charles was posting at the same time I would have left it to him as he deals with this issue far better than I can.
Would you like to address the points Charles makes?

You and I made similar points. He probably believes that he has “utterly refuted” both of us. Much like your belief that your opinion utterly refutes anything other than a first shot at Z223.