The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

Exactly! The same thing can be said for the other occupants of the limo. (see the head turns and quizzical expressions referenced in the thread about Victoria Adams that I linked to earlier in this thread).

I know what you're saying Charles but it's not the same thing. In Altgens 6 Landis, Ready and Hickey are twisted around looking behind them, it's an extreme, co-ordinated reaction by all three and they each testify it is a specific reaction to the sound of the first shot.
It's not just head turns, these are to be expected and should not be used to support the identification of a gunshot.

[Charles Collins]

I know what you're saying Charles but it's not the same thing. In Altgens 6 Landis, Ready and Hickey are twisted around looking behind them, it's an extreme, co-ordinated reaction by all three and they each testify it is a specific reaction to the sound of the first shot.
It's not just head turns, these are to be expected and should not be used to support the identification of a gunshot.

Altgens 6 was taken at approximately Z255. This is about 1.75 seconds after Z223 (when you say that you believe that the first shot occurred). If your hypothesis is correct, then it means that the following conversation and actions took place in that 1.75 seconds:

“Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."

No way, Jose’!!!

[Dan O'meara]

Altgens 6 was taken at approximately Z255. This is about 1.75 seconds after Z223 (when you say that you believe that the first shot occurred). If your hypothesis is correct, then it means that the following conversation and actions took place in that 1.75 seconds:

“Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."

No way, Jose’!!!

I'm a bit lost Charles.
Why does any of that conversation have to take place before the Altgens pic?
Why isn't it a pic of the opening sentence - "“Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.”
The reference to Kennedy's head splitting open is obviously something that took place after the Altgens pic.
Why would you say that happened in the 1.75 seconds between z223 and z255?

[Andrew Mason]

The various arguments I've presented in this thread have led me to a first shot at z223. Assuming this came from the sniper's nest the shooter would have approximately one second to take aim and fire after the limo emerges from behind the oak tree (at z207). I don't really know about these things but it seems reasonable to me.

The problem with a first shot at z223, apart from the need for an instantaneous facial and hand reaction, is the relative timing of the shots.  As I have pointed out, the overwhelming timing evidence is that:

1. there were 3 shots.
2. the head shot was the last shot
3. the last two shots were in rapid succession, the second shot being perceptibly closer to the third than the first:  1...........2......3  (A shot, a pause and two shots in rapid succession - see for example SA Lawson, Sheriff Craig, Ladybird Johnson, Luke Mooney, Mary Woodward, Pearl Springer all set out in my tabulation

The FBI determined that 2.3 seconds is about the fastest that two aimed shots could be made with Oswald's MC.

2.3 seconds or 42 frames prior to z313 is z271.

If the first shot was at z223, that would make the first interval 48 frames (271-223). That is a ratio of 48:42 which does not fit with the shot pattern.  But a first shot around z190-200 (81:42 or 71:42) fits the pattern.  That shot pattern fits pretty much the rest of the evidence as well - except Connally being hit in the back by z230.  Perhaps he wasn't.  Perhaps he was just turning around to see the President after realizing, in horror, that he had just heard a rifle shot and was fearing an assassination unfolding.  After all, both he and Nelly said he turned around to see the President before he was hit in the back.  By z271 there was a  clear path from the SN to Connally's back that just passes to the right of JFK's head.  Hickey said that JFK's hair flew up on the right side at the time of the second shot but it did not hit him.  Where should we look for that hair flying up?

[Charles Collins]

I'm a bit lost Charles.
Why does any of that conversation have to take place before the Altgens pic?
Why isn't it a pic of the opening sentence - "“Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.”
The reference to Kennedy's head splitting open is obviously something that took place after the Altgens pic.
Why would you say that happened in the 1.75 seconds between z223 and z255?

It appears to me that by the time Altgens 6 was taken that the looking around at things in various locations and observing nothing unusual, then discussing it, phase has already taken place. And that all three of them are looking in the direction of the TSBD. Therefore it appears that they had already figured out the direction of the shots. Most of the people in that photograph appear to be looking intently at the President and can see that he is in distress. If Landis, Ready, and Hickey are only now making their initial reactions, then I believe that they are truly a few steps behind most everyone else.

[Jerry Organ]

Jerry: You're a dinosaur leftist. Your ideology is bankrupt, out of date, and is rejected by the vast majority of Americans. You can't see people; you see race and argue backwards from there. Check the date on your computer; it says 2020 not 1860 or even 1960.

You're welcome to viewing things like you do and I'm welcome to calling it out for the neanderthal thinking that it is.

I'm a small-c conservative, thank you.

Sure, Steve, you not voting for Trump, and Trump winning the areas with the most history of ill-treatment towards non-Whites has nothing to do with racism.

It's 2020, alright, and this time there's no mistaking what Trump and Mitch McConnell are.

[Jerry Organ]

The problem with a first shot at z223, apart from the need for an instantaneous facial and hand reaction, is the relative timing of the shots.  As I have pointed out, the overwhelming timing evidence is that:

1. there were 3 shots.
2. the head shot was the last shot
3. the last two shots were in rapid succession, the second shot being perceptibly closer to the third than the first:  1...........2......3  (A shot, a pause and two shots in rapid succession - see for example SA Lawson, Sheriff Craig, Ladybird Johnson, Luke Mooney, Mary Woodward, Pearl Springer all set out in my tabulation

I see. It's like they all knew in advance that the first loud noise was a gunshot and so they were mentally prepared to gauge the span of all three shots. But maybe they only registered the span between the second and third shots, but the first shot that they didn't play much attention to was further back in their mind.

The FBI determined that 2.3 seconds is about the fastest that two aimed shots could be made with Oswald's MC.

2.3 seconds or 42 frames prior to z313 is z271.

If the first shot was at z223, that would make the first interval 48 frames (271-223). That is a ratio of 48:42 which does not fit with the shot pattern.  But a first shot around z190-200 (81:42 or 71:42) fits the pattern.  That shot pattern fits pretty much the rest of the evidence as well - except Connally being hit in the back by z230.  Perhaps he wasn't.  Perhaps he was just turning around to see the President after realizing, in horror, that he had just heard a rifle shot and was fearing an assassination unfolding.  After all, both he and Nelly said he turned around to see the President before he was hit in the back.  By z271 there was a  clear path from the SN to Connally's back that just passes to the right of JFK's head.  Hickey said that JFK's hair flew up on the right side at the time of the second shot but it did not hit him.  Where should we look for that hair flying up?

The problem folks have with that is that Hickey would have to turn around to face forward (he's looking backward in Altgens, taken Z255) between Z255 and Z273 (about one second), locate Kennedy and observe a minor hair flutter.

(Note: Hickey is more propped up against the seat back)

Add to that that Hickey couldn't see to where the flutter occurred.

Sun visor wobbles more before reaching the lamp- post than after

And Kennedy's hair flutters before and after the Z270s. It's because his head leans forward such that a lock dangles. Nor does the visor movement mean a fragment strike.

[Andrew Mason]

Jerry: You're a dinosaur leftist. Your ideology is bankrupt, out of date, and is rejected by the vast majority of Americans. You can't see people; you see race and argue backwards from there. Check the date on your computer; it says 2020 not 1860 or even 1960.

You're welcome to viewing things like you do and I'm welcome to calling it out for the neanderthal thinking that it is.

As bone-headed as Jerry can be on some things, calling him a neanderthal leftist is somewhat unfair (although he, like all of us, is perhaps a bit of a neanderthal since we all have some neanderthal genes).

Perhaps you should first define what a leftist is. Most people who were called leftists 80+ years ago during the depression, advocating for New Deal safety nets like unemployment insurance, and basic social security/pensions would now be mainstream. 

In any event "leftist" is only a pejorative term to those who have a false view that "leftists" are fiscally irresponsible and want government to take over our lives while conservatives stand for fiscally responsible smaller government and greater individual freedom.  One could make the argument that it is the other way around.  "Leftists" would like to see everyone, including the poor and downtrodden experience greater economic and social freedom through such things as affordable health care, education and better pay.  Conservative Eisenhower expanded the role of government tremendously during the 50s.  Nixon reformed healthcare and brought in Medicare for seniors. Free spending Reagan tripled the national debt (from $738 Billion to $2.1 Trillion).  That "leftist" president Clinton actually ran 4 straight surpluses and brought down the federal debt over his 8 years in office. Bush ended that with 8 straight deficits totaling $3.2 trillion and drove the U.S. and the world to the edge of economic collapse. Obama brought in the Affordable Care Act that required all insurers to cover pre-existing conditions - a term that even Trump promises to preserve and led the U.S. to a long sustained period of growth and job creation.  And Trump has ballooned the federal debt with his tax reductions with the approval of the same "conservative" legislators that threatened to shut down the government over Obama's much smaller deficits.