The First Shot

[Jack Nessan]

"...there is abundant independent evidence to support each point..."

Apart from a couple of sketchy interpretations of cherry-picked witnesses there is no evidence for point 2 and an overwhelming abundance of evidence against a shot at z272.

There is conflicting evidence for point 3.

Exactly right, a normal Andrew discussion. Basically, all faulty opinion and no evidence at all.

[Andrew Mason]

All this cherry picked analysis and dubious posting and you still end up with all the eyewitnesses in and around the car stating JBC was hit by the first shot and no one, not even JBC, claiming there was a shot at Z272. Even JBC thought he was wounded by Z235. Yet here you are, still misquoting the witnesses and claiming a shot that never happened.

I asked Dan to provide the "overwhelming evidence" that there was no shot around z272. I guess the question was too hard. 

The fact that Gerald Blaine in his book: The Kennedy Detail says that Secret Service agents told him that there was a shot just after Clint Hill jumped, doesn't really constitute the best evidence but at least it should show you that I am not the only person in the world who has concluded there was such a shot (Blaine, The Kennedy Detail, ch. 12 "Six Seconds in Dallas"):

"He leapt off the running board of Halfback, as he’d done countless times
before, his body reacting as it had been trained. In that terrible, unforgettable
moment, Clint Hill had but one purpose: he had to reach Mrs. Kennedy and the
president, and shield them. His powerful legs propelled him toward the pink hat
that seemed to be moving farther and farther away each time his foot landed on
the pavement. If only he could reach the back of the car, his legs knew the exact
height of the rear step; his hands knew exactly where to grasp the hand grip. As
he bounded toward the limousine, which had slowed to about seven miles an
hour around the corner but was starting to pick up speed, he had to run at the
breakneck speed of nearly fifteen miles an hour to adjust for the speed and the
distance between the two cars. As his feet propelled him toward the moving car,
Clint Hill was so focused on reaching his target that he didn’t even hear the
second shot."

I asked Dan to provide us with the witnesses who recalled seeing JBC react to being shot in the back who said that it was NOT on the second shot.  So I guess this question was also too hard.  Again, just so you don't think I am the only person in the world who has concluded this, Gerald Blaine and Clint Hill agree with this scenario:  See this youtube interview/discussion with Clint Hill and Gerald Blaine conducted by the late Gary Mack, curator of the Sixth Floor Museum (beginning at 32:45):

[Jack Nessan]

I asked Dan to provide the "overwhelming evidence" that there was no shot around z272. I guess the question was too hard. 

The fact that Gerald Blaine in his book: The Kennedy Detail says that Secret Service agents told him that there was a shot just after Clint Hill jumped, doesn't really constitute the best evidence but at least it should show you that I am not the only person in the world who has concluded there was such a shot (Blaine, The Kennedy Detail, ch. 12 "Six Seconds in Dallas"):

"He leapt off the running board of Halfback, as he’d done countless times
before, his body reacting as it had been trained. In that terrible, unforgettable
moment, Clint Hill had but one purpose: he had to reach Mrs. Kennedy and the
president, and shield them. His powerful legs propelled him toward the pink hat
that seemed to be moving farther and farther away each time his foot landed on
the pavement. If only he could reach the back of the car, his legs knew the exact
height of the rear step; his hands knew exactly where to grasp the hand grip. As
he bounded toward the limousine, which had slowed to about seven miles an
hour around the corner but was starting to pick up speed, he had to run at the
breakneck speed of nearly fifteen miles an hour to adjust for the speed and the
distance between the two cars. As his feet propelled him toward the moving car,
Clint Hill was so focused on reaching his target that he didn’t even hear the
second shot."

I asked Dan to provide us with the witnesses who recalled seeing JBC react to being shot in the back who said that it was NOT on the second shot.  So I guess this question was also too hard.  Again, just so you don't think I am the only person in the world who has concluded this, Gerald Blaine and Clint Hill agree with this scenario:  See this youtube interview/discussion with Clint Hill and Gerald Blaine conducted by the late Gary Mack, curator of the Sixth Floor Museum (beginning at 32:45):

Blaine is nothing but hearsay.

The overwhelming evidence is the fact there is no evidence at all of a shot at Z272.  Most definitely not JBC or the other people in the car, alongside the road, in the SS car thought there was a shot at Z272. Nothing, nowhere, Nada.

[Andrew Mason]

Blaine is nothing but hearsay.

The overwhelming evidence is the fact there is no evidence at all of a shot at Z272.  Most definitely not JBC or the other people in the car, alongside the road, in the SS car thought there was a shot at Z272. Nothing, nowhere, Nada.

Everything except the WC and HSCA testimony is hearsay. That just means it is not admissible as evidence in court.  It doesn't mean it is not evidence with some probative value.  Unless Blaine and Hill are lying, the evidence that there was a second shot after Hill stepped off the running board comes from other Secret Service agents who told them that there was a shot just after Hill stepped off and before the shot that hit the President in the head.  This may have been SA Hickey, who said that the last two shots were very close together and the first of those last two appeared to just miss JFK because the hair on the right side of his head flew up at the time the second shot sounded.  The hair flies up at z273-276.  If that was caused by the second bullet, it had to have struck JBC.  So, if Hickey was not hallucinating, he - together with the zfilm - provides non-hearsay evidence of a shot at just before z273.

[Dan O'meara]

Who recalled seeing JBC react to being shot in the back who said that it was NOT on the second shot?  Unless such witnesses exist, I don't know how you can say that I "cherry picked" witnesses. ALL the witnesses who recalled JBC reacting to being hit said it was the second shot (JBC, Nellie C, Greer, Powers, Gayle Newman).  Not a single witness said that JBC appeared to have been hit on the first shot.   

I have no idea what the "overwhelming abundance of evidence" is that there was no shot at z272. There is none that I have found but maybe you have.  Let me know what it is.
I agree there are some witnesses (three by my count) who say that the head shot was not the last shot but only one was very clear or sure about that:

• Jacqueline Kennedy initially thought there were 3 shots but to the WC was able to recall only two, and thought her husband was hit in the head on the second;
• John Chism said there were 2 or 3 shots and that JFK was hit in the head on the second; and
• Emmett Hudson said there were 3 shots and that JFK was hit in the head on the second. He said this for the first time in his WC testimony only on July 22, 1964, 8 months after the event. Hudson also told the WC that the shots were evenly spaced so this would mean that the third shot occurred at least 5 seconds after the head shot or around zframe 403, contrary to his FBI statement that the last two shots were in rapid succession  "just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt-action rifle" or words to that effect.

There are many more witnesses who provided clear recollections that the head shot was the last shot, including the Connallys, Dave Powers, Secret Service agents, Hickey and McIntyre, as well as photographers Altgens and Zapruder, and bystanders Linda Willis, Mary Woodward and Gayle Newman.

"I have no idea what the "overwhelming abundance of evidence" is that there was no shot at z272. There is none that I have found but maybe you have.  Let me know what it is."

You have no idea?
Your sad attempts to uphold a shot hitting JBC around z272 have been destroyed in numerous ways in this thread. It's recorded for all to see.

"I agree there are some witnesses (three by my count) who say that the head shot was not the last shot but only one was very clear or sure about that:"

Pat Speer's analysis of his comprehensive collection of witness statements regarding the shots, reveals the following witnesses who either directly stated there was a shot after the head shot or whose statements can be interpreted as such:

Harry Holmes, D.V. Harkness, Robert Hughes, Cecil Ault, Hugh Aynesworth, Ruby Henderson, Roy Kellerman, Bill Greer, James Chaney, Douglas Jackson, Sam Kinney, Emory Roberts, George Hickey, Senator Yarborough, Cliff Carter, Thomas Johns, Milton Wright, Dave Wiegman, James Underwood, Malcolm Couch, Tom Dillard, Bill Decker, Stavis Ellis, J. W. Foster, S. M. Holland, Royce Skelton, Jack Franzen, Mrs. Jack Franzen, Malcolm Summers, Abe Zapruder, Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Charles Brehm, June Dishong, Ernest Brandt,  John Templin, Mary Woodward, Aurelia Alonzo, Margaret Brown, Ann Donaldson, Georgia Ruth Hendrix, Marilyn Willis, Pierce Allman, Amos Euins, Dolores Kounas, James Worrell, James Jarman and Hank Norman.

First shot - z223
Second shot - z312/3
Third shot - ?

Although the third shot cannot be pinpointed exactly it should follow the "shot - pause - two shots close together" pattern described by so many witnesses. This would place the shot around the z354 mark. I didn't include Buddy Walters in the list above even though he believed the last shot missed:

"Due to the fact that the projectile struck so near the underpass, it was, in my opinion, probably the last shot that was fired and had apparently went high and above the President's car.”

This third shot struck a concrete manhole cover, a piece fragmented from it and hit the curb near Tague. As Walters was searching close to the cover two photographers, Murray and Allen, captured him in the act. Interestingly, Nerin Gun wrote this in an work entitled, "Red Roses From Texas":

"Buddy Walthers, the policeman from the Sheriff's office, states for his part that the shots—or at least one shot--came from the balustrade of the motorway bridge. He ran towards it; that was when, with a Secret Service man, he found a rifle bullet in the grass near the bridge--the "fourth bullet"? (Later) "Why is the existence of a fourth rifle bullet denied? Detective Bill Walthers declares that he found it. He described to me himself how he found the bullet and a picture taken immediately after the shooting by a Dallas Times photographer shows this detective and a Secret Service man in the act of retrieving a bullet from the turf at the roadside."

Walters denied this had happened when questioned by the FBI, however, although it appears Walters mistakenly thought this shot came from the "motorway bridge", he is indeed photographed with an unknown male thought by some to be a Secret Service man and they do appear to be picking something off the floor and pocketing it.
This indicates it was a bullet that hit the concrete manhole cover and not a fragment from the head shot (which would then have to travel onward to Tague's position which seems most unlikely)

[Andrew Mason]

Pat Speer's analysis of his comprehensive collection of witness statements regarding the shots, reveals the following witnesses who either directly stated there was a shot after the head shot or whose statements can be interpreted as such:

Harry Holmes, D.V. Harkness, Robert Hughes, Cecil Ault, Hugh Aynesworth, Ruby Henderson, Roy Kellerman, Bill Greer, James Chaney, Douglas Jackson, Sam Kinney, Emory Roberts, George Hickey, Senator Yarborough, Cliff Carter, Thomas Johns, Milton Wright, Dave Wiegman, James Underwood, Malcolm Couch, Tom Dillard, Bill Decker, Stavis Ellis, J. W. Foster, S. M. Holland, Royce Skelton, Jack Franzen, Mrs. Jack Franzen, Malcolm Summers, Abe Zapruder, Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Charles Brehm, June Dishong, Ernest Brandt,  John Templin, Mary Woodward, Aurelia Alonzo, Margaret Brown, Ann Donaldson, Georgia Ruth Hendrix, Marilyn Willis, Pierce Allman, Amos Euins, Dolores Kounas, James Worrell, James Jarman and Hank Norman.

Perhaps you should apply the same standard to your own postings that you advocate for others.   

"Apart from a couple of sketchy interpretations of cherry-picked witnesses there is no evidence for your" assertion.

When you use witnesses like Zapruder and Hickey, and Woodward I have to wonder whether you have read their evidence.  Hickey, for example was quite clear that the second shot did not hit JFK and the third was the head shot.

[Jack Nessan]

Everything except the WC and HSCA testimony is hearsay. That just means it is not admissible as evidence in court.  It doesn't mean it is not evidence with some probative value.  Unless Blaine and Hill are lying, the evidence that there was a second shot after Hill stepped off the running board comes from other Secret Service agents who told them that there was a shot just after Hill stepped off and before the shot that hit the President in the head.  This may have been SA Hickey, who said that the last two shots were very close together and the first of those last two appeared to just miss JFK because the hair on the right side of his head flew up at the time the second shot sounded.  The hair flies up at z273-276.  If that was caused by the second bullet, it had to have struck JBC.  So, if Hickey was not hallucinating, he - together with the zfilm - provides non-hearsay evidence of a shot at just before z273.

If you had done a little more analysis, you would have found there is an earlier SA Hickey statement. It is exactly the same as SA Kinney's. The hair flying forward is a reference to the headshot. In Kinney's statement the second shot is once again the headshot. Once again Media's influence and the statement changes performed to accommodate an added shot can be clearly seen.


George Hickey: 11/22
Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of SS-6',9-X on the left side. As 100-X made the turn and proceeded a short-distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear. I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything. Nothing was observed and I turned around and looked at the President's car. The President was slumped to the left in the car and I observed him come up. I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed as if the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward. I then reached down, picked up the AR 15, cocked and loaded it- and stood part way up in the car and looked about. By this time, 100-X had 679-X had passed under the overpass and was proceeding at a high rkte of speed towards the hospital.

Samuel A. Kinney
Special Agent
White House Detail

I was driving SS 679-X, follow-up. As we turned off Main Street (left) about 4 minutes from our destination of Trade Mart. The first shot was fired as we were going into an underpass. The first shot was fired, I glanced from the taillight of SS 100-X, at the President and it appeared that he had been shot because he slumped to the left. Immediately he sat up again.* At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head. With this, simultaneously with the President's car, we stepped on the gas. I released the siren at that time. I did hear three shots but do not recall which shots were those that hit the President.