The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

All that is required by you is a little actual research. These witnesses are all great examples of the medias influence. All these witnesses are two shot witnesses. Maybe do not edit their statements to get your desired result and quote what they actually stated.

I have given you Jackie and Kellerman's quotes. If you think I have edited them or selected something out of context, feel free to provide your comments.  Here is what Greer testified before the WC (2H118):

Mr. GREER I know there was three that I heard-three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?
Mr. GREER I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

And Greer's recollection fits the zfilm exactly.  He turns around for the first time at z278-282 to z292 during which time JBC is starting to fall back onto Nellie.  He turns the second time from z304-318 during which the head shot occurs.

Nellie Connally heard and experienced three distinct shots: (4H149):
Mr. SPECTER. How many did you hear in all?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard three.

Governor Connally heard two and felt the impact another distinct shot (4H136):
"It is not conceivable to me that I could hare been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn’t hear it. I didn’t hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot. " 

JBC and Nellie now are considered reliable witnesses right up until they completely contradict this bizarre fantasy theory. The reason there is not any supporting witness statements or evidence of any kind to a shot at Z272 is because there wasn't one. Don't let that stop you though.

Witnesses may be reliable on some things and not reliable on other things.  Recollection of event that they observed is easier to get correct than trying to reconstruct something they did not observe ie. what JBC looked like from Zapruder's position when he was hit.

Actually this is unbelievable, about 10 years after having this very issue of JBC stating he was shot at Z235 pointed out to you, and you stating he really was wrong and he was shot at Z272, and you haven't been able to come up with a better conclusion than to keep repeating JBC and Nellie knew exactly what was going on except when he was shot?

The conclusion that there was a shot around z272 is based on evidence that is independent of the Connallys. It is based on the evidence that:

1. the first shot struck JFK in the neck.
2. the second shot struck JBC in the back/armpit.
3. the third shot struck JFK in the head
4. the shot pattern was 1........2...3

If one accepts that evidence, and there is abundant independent evidence to support each point, then a shot after the midpoint between the first and last shots is the only conclusion that one can reach.  It is not a theory. It is simply a conclusion that has to be reached if the evidence is accepted.  You just don't accept all the evidence.  That's fine. So criticize my acceptance of the evidence if you wish. But you can't criticize the conclusion that inevitably follows from that evidence.

[Dan O'meara]

I have given you Jackie and Kellerman's quotes. If you think I have edited them or selected something out of context, feel free to provide your comments.  Here is what Greer testified before the WC (2H118):

Mr. GREER I know there was three that I heard-three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?
Mr. GREER I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

And Greer's recollection fits the zfilm exactly.  He turns around for the first time at z278-282 to z292 during which time JBC is starting to fall back onto Nellie.  He turns the second time from z304-318 during which the head shot occurs.

Nellie Connally heard and experienced three distinct shots: (4H149):
Mr. SPECTER. How many did you hear in all?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard three.

Governor Connally heard two and felt the impact another distinct shot (4H136):
"It is not conceivable to me that I could hare been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn’t hear it. I didn’t hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot. " 
Witnesses may be reliable on some things and not reliable on other things.  Recollection of event that they observed is easier to get correct than trying to reconstruct something they did not observe ie. what JBC looked like from Zapruder's position when he was hit.
The conclusion that there was a shot around z272 is based on evidence that is independent of the Connallys. It is based on the evidence that:

1. the first shot struck JFK in the neck.
2. the second shot struck JBC in the back/armpit.
3. the third shot struck JFK in the head
4. the shot pattern was 1........2...3

If one accepts that evidence, and there is abundant independent evidence to support each point, then a shot after the midpoint between the first and last shots is the only conclusion that one can reach.  It is not a theory. It is simply a conclusion that has to be reached if the evidence is accepted.  You just don't accept all the evidence.  That's fine. So criticize my acceptance of the evidence if you wish. But you can't criticize the conclusion that inevitably follows from that evidence.

"...there is abundant independent evidence to support each point..."

Apart from a couple of sketchy interpretations of cherry-picked witnesses there is no evidence for point 2 and an overwhelming abundance of evidence against a shot at z272.

There is conflicting evidence for point 3.

[Andrew Mason]

Gov Connally's own words about as to what he stated when he was shot as referenced by Nellie and Jackie. Nellie's own statement, made through Julian Read, immediately after the assassination. Leaves no doubt about what occurred.

It is at least interesting that Jackie said that she heard the first loud noise but what drew her attention was JBC shouting after that loud noise.  That fits with what Nellie said, that JBC shouted "Oh, no, no" after the first shot and before she saw him recoil as the second shot was heard. Nellie never wavered on that.

JBC was not very sure about when he said it:

• in 1964 he said "I immediately, when I was hit, I said, “Oh, no, no, no.”" (4H133)
• in 1966 he said “Between the time I heard the first shot and felt the impact of the other bullet that obviously hit me, I sensed something was wrong, and said, ‘Oh no, no, no.’ After I felt the impact I glanced down and saw that my whole chest was covered with blood.” (Life, 25Nov66, p 48)
• in 1978 to the HSCA he said "When I was hit, or shortly before I was hit-no, I guess it was after I was hit-I said first, just almost in despair, I said, "no, no, no," just thinking how tragic it was that we had gone through this 24 hours, it had all been so wonderful and so beautifully executed. The President had been so marvelously received and then here, at the last moment, this great tragedy. I just said, "no, no, no, no." Then I said right after I was hit, I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." (1 HSCA 43)

Amazing how 11 and 12 year old children can be taught in hunter safety about being careful about selecting a shot because one bullet can pass through two animals, but grown men cannot accept the reality of SBT on a forum about the JFK assassination. Especially given the bullet passing through JFK had no where else to go but into JBC.

You really have to read what I write. I never said that the bullet after exiting JFK's neck did not hit JBC.  I am just saying it did not hit him in the back or anywhere on the right side of his midline.  That is based not only on the right-to-left trajectory if the bullet and the fact that JBC's midline was not anywhere close to 13 inches left of JFK's, but also on the clear evidence of the Connallys that JBC was not struck in the back by the first shot. JBC said that JFK had moved when he turned to see him after the first shot and was not able to see how he was before he felt the impact of the second shot. Nellie said that JFK was already reacting to being shot in the neck before the second shot hit that her husband.

Greer is a two shot witness right up until his testimony to the WC. Kellerman states the car accelerates after the second shot and before a third.

You are quite right that Greer does not mention a third shot in his earlier statements.  He described hearing the first when the car had almost passed the western edge of the TSBD and he described then hearing the second, after which he turned and saw JBC fall back onto his wife.  But, he did not say that those were the only shots he heard. 

He did not say how many shots occurred until he gave his WC testimony.  In his WC testimony he said there was a third shot when he turned back again. But we can see in the zfilm that he turned for the first time as JBC was falling back onto his wife and then turned again and was looking back when the head shot occurred.  So we know there was a shot after what he described as the second shot.

[Andrew Mason]

"...there is abundant independent evidence to support each point..."

Apart from a couple of sketchy interpretations of cherry-picked witnesses there is no evidence for point 2 and an overwhelming abundance of evidence against a shot at z272.

Who recalled seeing JBC react to being shot in the back who said that it was NOT on the second shot?  Unless such witnesses exist, I don't know how you can say that I "cherry picked" witnesses. ALL the witnesses who recalled JBC reacting to being hit said it was the second shot (JBC, Nellie C, Greer, Powers, Gayle Newman).  Not a single witness said that JBC appeared to have been hit on the first shot.   

I have no idea what the "overwhelming abundance of evidence" is that there was no shot at z272. There is none that I have found but maybe you have.  Let me know what it is.

There is conflicting evidence for point 3.

I agree there are some witnesses (three by my count) who say that the head shot was not the last shot but only one was very clear or sure about that:

• Jacqueline Kennedy initially thought there were 3 shots but to the WC was able to recall only two, and thought her husband was hit in the head on the second;
• John Chism said there were 2 or 3 shots and that JFK was hit in the head on the second; and
• Emmett Hudson said there were 3 shots and that JFK was hit in the head on the second. He said this for the first time in his WC testimony only on July 22, 1964, 8 months after the event. Hudson also told the WC that the shots were evenly spaced so this would mean that the third shot occurred at least 5 seconds after the head shot or around zframe 403, contrary to his FBI statement that the last two shots were in rapid succession  "just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt-action rifle" or words to that effect.

There are many more witnesses who provided clear recollections that the head shot was the last shot, including the Connallys, Dave Powers, Secret Service agents, Hickey and McIntyre, as well as photographers Altgens and Zapruder, and bystanders Linda Willis, Mary Woodward and Gayle Newman.

[John Mytton]

Governor CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I didn't see either one of them.

JohnM

[Jack Nessan]

Governor CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I didn't see either one of them.


JohnM

JBC's very first interview before he had a chance to view the Zapruder film and change his statement. He states he is turning to his left not to his right and he could see JFK slumped.

JBC 11/27/63 Hospital interview:

“And then we had just turned the corner [from Houston onto Elm], we heard a shot; I turned to my left

I was sitting in the jump seat. I turned to my left to look in the back seat – the president had slumped. He had said nothing. Almost simultaneously, as I turned, I was hit and I knew I had been hit badly.”


"Almost simultaneously as I turned."  That is a description of either the first shot or a second gunman.

------------------------------------------------

Nellie states and restates he was hit by the first shot. JBC crying out "Oh No No No" is the key.

Mrs. CONNALLY. …….Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
 

Mrs. CONNALLY. -----------------------------------As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot…..
 

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."


 

Mrs. KENNEDY. You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."
 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?

Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling……… And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed………. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him…….. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember. And I read there was a third shot. But I don't know. Just those two.
 

[Jack Nessan]

Who recalled seeing JBC react to being shot in the back who said that it was NOT on the second shot?  Unless such witnesses exist, I don't know how you can say that I "cherry picked" witnesses. ALL the witnesses who recalled JBC reacting to being hit said it was the second shot (JBC, Nellie C, Greer, Powers, Gayle Newman).  Not a single witness said that JBC appeared to have been hit on the first shot.   

I have no idea what the "overwhelming abundance of evidence" is that there was no shot at z272. There is none that I have found but maybe you have.  Let me know what it is.
I agree there are some witnesses (three by my count) who say that the head shot was not the last shot but only one was very clear or sure about that:

• Jacqueline Kennedy initially thought there were 3 shots but to the WC was able to recall only two, and thought her husband was hit in the head on the second;
• John Chism said there were 2 or 3 shots and that JFK was hit in the head on the second; and
• Emmett Hudson said there were 3 shots and that JFK was hit in the head on the second. He said this for the first time in his WC testimony only on July 22, 1964, 8 months after the event. Hudson also told the WC that the shots were evenly spaced so this would mean that the third shot occurred at least 5 seconds after the head shot or around zframe 403, contrary to his FBI statement that the last two shots were in rapid succession  "just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt-action rifle" or words to that effect.

There are many more witnesses who provided clear recollections that the head shot was the last shot, including the Connallys, Dave Powers, Secret Service agents, Hickey and McIntyre, as well as photographers Altgens and Zapruder, and bystanders Linda Willis, Mary Woodward and Gayle Newman.

All this cherry picked analysis and dubious posting and you still end up with all the eyewitnesses in and around the car stating JBC was hit by the first shot and no one, not even JBC, claiming there was a shot at Z272. Even JBC thought he was wounded by Z235. Yet here you are, still misquoting the witnesses and claiming a shot that never happened.