The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

Oh, why did you have to come back?
My last post would've been a great way to end this thread.
But here you are, back for yet another lesson in basic English.

"He also shows that at z201 the President's car is where Karen Westbrook and Gloria Calvery placed it just after the time of the first shot."

When Calvery says the car was almost directly in front of her, there are two key components to the description - "directly in front of her" and "almost".
In English, this is the equivalent of saying "not quite directly in front" OR, to be super-precise, it is the same as saying "The President's car was not directly in front of her".
When we look at Tyler's mapping program, we can see that the limo is directly in front of Calvery from, roughly speaking, z190 to z214.
Unfortunately for you, z195 falls within this range and, as we can see from the graphic, at z195 the limo was directly in front of Calvery.
So, even on this tiniest of details, your model is refuted. Yet again. For about the 12th time.

"Tyler's analysis does not exclude a first shot at z195."

This isn't about Tyler's analysis, or Speer's analysis or even my own analysis.
The Tyler/Speer evidence I have presented speaks for itself.
It cannot realistically be denied, which is why you have provided no credible argument against it.
Every turn and twist you have tried you have been thwarted because this evidence speaks for itself.
It is very strong evidence and should be embraced as such but you would rather deny it because it doesn't fit with what you've decided. This, in my opinion, is a disgraceful way to approach the evidence.

But keep coming back.
It's a pleasure to continually serve you up in front of the rest of the forum.

Again, you are relying completely on your interpretation that the occupants of the VP security car, in saying that they had made the turn onto Elm, could not possibly have been referring to the position of their car as shown in the Tyler animation at z201.  Particularly when Carter said that their car was along-side the TSBD - which is exactly the position seen in Tyler's animation at z201.  For some reason, you want to belittle others for disagreeing with your interpretation.

Mark Tyler was very aware of all these statements and states that the first shot could have been as early as z195.  So, in your view, has Tyler taken a disgraceful way to approach the evidence? 

The credible argument against the first shot being as late as z223 is based on evidence: Phil Willis, Linda Willis, the shot pattern (with the last shot being the head shot), SA Jack Ready, Rosemary Willis, as well as Croft and Betzner.   So you can't say I haven't presented an argument against a first shot at z223 based on credible evidence.  I can't help it if you don't find it credible and somehow think that no one could possibly have an honest belief that this evidence is credible and reliable.

[Andrew Mason]

Calvary couldn't be referring to a more oblique view she had of the President as the limousine neared her.

Possibly.  But we aren't relying just on Calvery.

BTW, Rachey and Skelton support a first show miss. Rachey said "She observed President KENNEDY'S car pass her point of observation and almost immediately thereafter heard three explosions". Z201 is about eight seconds after the car passed her position; compare with about five seconds for a shot fired in the Z150s.

The President's car was opposite Virgie Baker (Rachley) about a full car-length before Zapruder started filming at z133. That is about 21 Zapruder frames, so around z112 if Zapruder had been filming then.  The time between z112 and z195 is 4.5 seconds.  Baker said that when the first shot sounded, the car had passed by and she could not see the President very well.  She said that the car had started slightly into the curve on Elm (WC testimony, 7H509).  So that might put it a bit farther along than z150.

Here's Connally merely "showing concern" -- doing what Mason says: "thinking an assassination was unfolding and fearing for the President".

The Governor's wrist goes limp, he's gasping for breath and his right shoulder drops in comparison to his left shoulder. Have you ever seen anyone exhibit such gyrations in order to turn around to check on the person behind?

According to Mason's Ash Heap Theory, Connally isn't shot in the chest and wrist until after this animation ends.

That's right Jerry.  Just following the evidence. Perhaps you could show us where you think JBC makes that rearward turn to look at JFK......

[Dan O'meara]

Again, you are relying completely on your interpretation that the occupants of the VP security car, in saying that they had made the turn onto Elm, could not possibly have been referring to the position of their car as shown in the Tyler animation at z201.  Particularly when Carter said that their car was along-side the TSBD - which is exactly the position seen in Tyler's animation at z201.  For some reason, you want to belittle others for disagreeing with your interpretation.

Mark Tyler was very aware of all these statements and states that the first shot could have been as early as z195.  So, in your view, has Tyler taken a disgraceful way to approach the evidence? 

The credible argument against the first shot being as late as z223 is based on evidence: Phil Willis, Linda Willis, the shot pattern (with the last shot being the head shot), SA Jack Ready, Rosemary Willis, as well as Croft and Betzner.   So you can't say I haven't presented an argument against a first shot at z223 based on credible evidence.  I can't help it if you don't find it credible and somehow think that no one could possibly have an honest belief that this evidence is credible and reliable.

The credible argument against the first shot being as late as z223 is based on evidence: Phil Willis, Linda Willis, the shot pattern (with the last shot being the head shot), SA Jack Ready, Rosemary Willis, as well as Croft and Betzner.   So you can't say I haven't presented an argument against a first shot at z223 based on credible evidence.

"The credible argument against...z223"?

How do Betzner, Croft and Ready undermine z223 in a credible way?


"I can't help it if you don't find it credible and somehow think that no one could possibly have an honest belief that this evidence is credible and reliable."

Do you find the Tyler/Speer evidence I've presented credible and reliable?

[Andrew Mason]

Here is 4.5 seconds before Z195:



The president at that point is about 70 to 80 feet away from Virgie Baker's position on the Tyler map.

You are assuming Tyler has her correctly positioned.  And even if you are correct, you are exaggerating the distance. It is 50 feet based on the distance from the north side of Elm being 15 feet from the President.

Rachley said that she walked out of the front doors and crossed the street in front of the TSBD and stood at the edge of Elm St. Roberdeau has her at the end of the sidewalk directly in front of the TSBD front doors:

This is about 7 1/2 seconds before Z195. That's a long time to match with Baker's statement: "She observed President KENNEDY'S car pass her point of observation and almost immediately thereafter heard three explosions".

It is about 5 1/2 seconds before Z195 from the time the car is directly in front of Rachley where Roberdeau has her to z195. Here is 4.5 seconds before z195, which on Tyler's animation has the President's car just past the position of Rachley:




How many seconds is "almost".  Remember, she also said that when the first shot sounded, JFK was not very visible to her.

Connally actually made a successful turn and did see the President? You're some evidence-follower.

Notice I did not say that he did see the President. Those are your words.  Perhaps a remedial reading course would help you, Jerry.

Although in his first statement to the press, JBC said that he turned to look in the back seat and saw that "the President had slumped", in later statements it was not clear that he saw the President.  What he always claimed, however, was that he turned in order to see the President and when he could not get a good view he decided to turn the other way - to his left when he was struck in the back (he seems to get his left and right reversed in his hospital interview).

Connally made the effort to turn right before reaching the sign. He said he was facing forward or a bit left of forward (I figure his eyes were turned that way) when he was struck. The Zapruder film shows Connally almost facing forward by Z226.

And where do you see him even trying to look in the back seat? Where? Just give us a frame....

[Andrew Mason]

These exhibits aren't absolutes, but her location ("1") on CE 354 was marked. While near the east point of the curb, she would be in the street. This may be where she was when she heard the first shot ("Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes.").

Ok.  So Roberdeau is more accurate than Tyler.

I see. Yet you go on to claim Connally did get a look at the President before turning back.

Where do I claim that?  I said Connally's statements are not entirely clear on what he saw. But what is clear is that he was trying to see the President.

As he approached the sign, Connally tried to look back with just his torso and neck, which limited his rotation. I suppose his legs at that point were positioned to prevent an easy rightward turn. Earlier in the motorcade, he had made a rightward turn to look back when his legs were in a better position for such a turn.

Oh, so he can't move his legs to see if the President has been assassinated?  Here is where you are suggesting he is trying to see the President:


I am having trouble seeing those eyes looking anywhere near the President.  Maybe we can take a closer look:



Nope. Still don't see anything that looks like even a half-hearted attempt to actually look back at all. None. Zilch.

At the end of this clip, Connally appears to "looks back" at Kennedy (The Governor's head is not fully turned and the President had leaned to his left), but if Connally is wounded through the torso, he's probably seeing stars. Of course you believe what preceded this "look back" in the animation was merely Connally showing "concern" (although your Theory has Connally wounded in the thigh which your Theory claims he did not sense; priceless).

Or what Connally is doing in the animation is, as you put it: "thinking an assassination was unfolding and fearing for the President". Connally doesn't get shot in the back and wrist, per your Theory, until after the animation ends, when there's not even an eye blink to signify he's been shot.

Yet you think he has been shot by then.....  Hmm...  Maybe getting shot in real life is not what you see in the movies.  As I see it, he sails forward and he falls back onto his wife.  That is exactly what Nellie described happened when he was shot.

[Jerry Freeman]

At 1:23 in this copy...Kennedy clearly hit...Connally still holding his hat [impossible if he was injured by the same bullet] The governor is looking as straight back at JFK as anyone in front of him could possibly get. CE 399 [worshiped as that single bullet] was most likely fired by the sixth floor rifle into a giant bowl of jelly in advance of the Dallas visit.
Note---You Tube now considers the Zapruder film "Age Restricted" What next?

 

[Dan O'meara]

At 1:23 in this copy...Kennedy clearly hit...Connally still holding his hat [impossible if he was injured by the same bullet] The governor is looking as straight back at JFK as anyone in front of him could possibly get.

Look at the images of Connally Gerry has posted above.
His wrist is at such an unusual, almost unnatural angle because it has been shattered.
His wrist can no longer support his hand.
The probability of damage to the nerves running to his fingers is incredibly high.
Note that Connally's fingers are curled except for the index finger, which is straight.
This is indicative of damage to the Ulnar nerve, possibly from the fragment of bullet that exited the underside of his wrist.
IMO, Connally couldn't have let go of his hat if he'd wanted to.



 CE 399 [worshiped as that single bullet] was most likely fired by the sixth floor rifle into a giant bowl of jelly in advance of the Dallas visit.
Note---You Tube now considers the Zapruder film "Age Restricted" What next?

 

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