The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

I think I've missed that, could you point me to it.

I posted this 3D image.  (I don't know why you are not getting them - use a computer not your phone):

I'm not sure what you're saying here.
That the bullet passed through JFK and JBC without any deflection from JFK's neck to JBC's left thigh?

That seems to be the trajectory and it fits the thigh wound characteristics of being struck by the butt end of an intact bullet.

You seem to be suggesting a shot that passes through JFK's neck the hits JBC's thigh without passing through his torso.
I can't be reading that right, surely?
I'm getting a bit confused.

You have not been paying attention to my posts or to Jerry's mocking of them!

The bullet gets "tangled in the drape of the jacket"? What a clumsy bullet.

?? The bullet was likely tumbling after exiting JFK's neck and striking the tie knot.

"...striking the wall"? What wall? Did JBC get shot at home?

Do you not see the partition or "wall" in front of the jump seats?

The idea that CE399 was stuck in JBC's thigh then fell out, as if the entry wound left a cylinder-shaped hole in his leg, has surely been debunked. If not, it should be.?

That is the general consensus - that CE399 caused the thigh wound and fell out onto JBC's stretcher at some point. When it fell out of the wound is not known, of course.

How can it be evidence if you've assumed z313 was the last shot?

??I haven't "assumed" it as a hypothetical. There IS evidence that the head shot was the last shot. 

Hickey saw hair move from a position he could not have possibly seen the slight ruffle of JFK's fringe line. The two shots he heard are described as being almost simultaneous.  How can a reference to a hair ruffle in the z270's and the headshot at z313 be described as almost simultaneous? The hair flying up is a reference to the headshot,
Stop using Greer, he's been totally discredited (and the way you phrase your sentence you imply Greer provided evidence for the first shot hitting JFK. Hmmm...)

Greer has not been discredited.  He was obviously wrong in suggesting that he did not slow down. But that does not mean he was wrong on other details.  His turn is corroborated by the zfilm: he said he turned and saw JBC falling back onto his wife.  We can see that is what JBC is doing from z280-285, which is when he is turned around.

Connally describes shouting "Oh. no, no, no" immediately after being hit. He can actually be seen in the Z-film doing this and it's long before the z270's

Nellie said that her husband uttered "Oh, no, no, no" BEFORE the second shot:
Nellie Connally (4H147)
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot
was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, “Oh, no,
no, no.” Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to
the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, “My God,
they are going to kill us all.”

The Governor, at least in 1978, was not sure when he was hit (1 HSCA 43):
When I was hit, or shortly before I was hit-no, I guess it was
after I was hit-I said first, just almost in despair, I said, "no, no,
no," just thinking how tragic it was that we had gone through this
24 hours, it had all been so wonderful and so beautifully executed.
The President had been so marvelously received and then here,
at the last moment, this great tragedy. I just said, "no, no, no, no."
Then I said right after I was hit, I said, "My God, they are going to
kill us all."

Gov. Connally was quoted in Life magazine Nov. 25, 1966 at p. 48 as saying:
"Between the time I heard the first shot and felt the impact of the other bullet that obviously hit me, I sensed something was wrong and said, 'Oh,no, no, no.' After I felt the impact I glanced down and saw that my whole chest was covered with blood."

How do you explain his truly extreme reaction from z225 to z230?

He is responding to the first shot about a second or so before, after he has determined that it was a rifle shot and an assassination was occurring. He said he turned around to try to see the President.  That is exactly what he does from z230-270. When do you see him turn around trying to see JFK before then?

PS: I get the impression you're posting images and Gifs but they're not coming up on the pages I'm getting.
Can you see them when you look at the forum pages because I can't?

Where are you located and what are you using to view pages?

[Charles Collins]

One just has to determine the direction of a line between the entrance and exit wound locations with the torso twisted about 75 degrees as seen in the z271 and 272 and compare to a line from the SN to the entrance wound.  I was trying to find a photo of a twisted naked torso but, alas, this is the best I could come up with:


But even with that, you can easily see that the path from the armpit to nipple does not go through lung let alone the other side. That is because the rib cage is articulated by the ribs and the shoulders move more than parts lower down.  So just because JBC's shoulders are turned 75 degrees the relative positions of the armpit and right nipple do not change that much. In fact, it moves the right nipple farther to the right making the line from the armpit to the nipple align closer to a shot from the rear.
This shows an angle of the bullet path to the car about 8 degrees.  I can't get anywhere near 8 degrees at z224. It is more like 12.5 degrees.  Besides, this shows JBC with his head out over the console between the jump seats and has his shoulders turned quite a bit right from forward.  That does not fit z224 that I can see.  He is facing forward at that time.

One of the problems that I have with your contention of a separate bullet hitting JBC’s left thigh is that the twisted torso posture you show with his left leg pointed in the opposite direction isn’t comfortable and requires constant tension to maintain. Maintaining this posture for any significant length of time would be unlikely. With the plethora of images showing JBC seated well inboard of JFK and turned to the right (which span the length of the motorcade), I believe that JBC shifted to the left side of the seat and turned his legs to the right as far as the space between him and the door of the limo allowed. This leg position makes it much easier to maintain the half turned posture so that he could address both the crowd on his side of the limo and turn a little more to chat with JFK occasionally. Here is an image showing a man in a chair. His legs are turned to the left so he can look to his left side. Whereas JBC was turned to his right. But this is the general idea (a more relaxed posture which allows one to turn further to the right than would be possible with the legs straight forward, etc).

https://images.app.goo.gl/acH2BjHnwm6jcf2i6

[Andrew Mason]

One of the problems that I have with your contention of a separate bullet hitting JBC’s left thigh is that the twisted torso posture you show with his left leg pointed in the opposite direction isn’t comfortable and requires constant tension to maintain. Maintaining this posture for any significant length of time would be unlikely. With the plethora of images showing JBC seated well inboard of JFK and turned to the right (which span the length of the motorcade), I believe that JBC shifted to the left side of the seat and turned his legs to the right as far as the space between him and the door of the limo allowed. This leg position makes it much easier to maintain the half turned posture so that he could address both the crowd on his side of the limo and turn a little more to chat with JFK occasionally. Here is an image showing a man in a chair. His legs are turned to the left so he can look to his left side. Whereas JBC was turned to his right. But this is the general idea (a more relaxed posture which allows one to turn further to the right than would be possible with the legs straight forward, etc).

I can't disagree with you if you are referring to your photo.  But Connally was not sitting on a chair like that.  He was sitting on a jump seat mounted on the floor with his feet on the floor so his knees were up:


Try sitting like that and NOT keeping your legs apart.  Now that is uncomfortable (assuming, Charles, that you are a male).  Also, with the door on the right keeping his right knee in front, the only way to keep the legs apart would be to have the left knee out to the left.  Given the upward angle of the legs, that is a pretty natural place to have the left leg:
   

He is turned perhaps a bit more to the right around at z190-200 than my photo, above, shows. But he was certainly not turned  as in your photo:

It is not that difficult to slide to the left side of the seat when one wants to turn.   This photo taken on Houston just before the turn onto Elm shows JBC in the middle of his jump seat:
   


  I don't see any turn to the rear until z230-270.

[Charles Collins]

I can't disagree with you if you are referring to your photo.  But Connally was not sitting on a chair like that.  He was sitting on a jump seat mounted on the floor with his feet on the floor so his knees were up:


Try sitting like that and NOT keeping your legs apart.  Now that is uncomfortable (assuming, Charles, that you are a male).

Also, Connally was not turned around at z190-200 as in your photo:

He was turned a bit more than is depicted here:

I agree that his knees were elevated due to the seat being close to the floorboard. However, simple geometry shows that if he shifted to the left side of the seat and turned his legs to the right as far as the limo door allowed, that he gained approximately 7” of space to extend his feet further away than would be possible if his legs were facing forward. This would effectively lower his knees to a more comfortable position. And as far as keeping his legs apart, there is a difference in keeping them apart enough for comfort and having them splayed way apart as your computer model shows. Even the picture I provided has the man’s arm between his legs. So they are not completely together.

And the photo you provided was taken from directly behind. Take one from the same angle as the bullet would have to be if fired at Z190-Z200 (I estimate it to be about 18 to 19-degrees) and see if the left thigh is visible to the camera. (And just how comfortable that position would be to hold.)


Edit to reply to your last added remark:

You need to look at the entire Zapruder film. And if you missed it, Don Roberdeau has a very good graph on his map that shows JBC turning his head from about 80-degrees to the right to about 30-degrees to his left between Z140 and Z160, then back to about 80-degrees to his right by Z-170. That is all accomplished in 30 Z-frames (or about 1-1/2 seconds). The other three in the back of the limo had similar reactions at about the same time. To me that is most likely indicative of a reaction to the first shot.

[Andrew Mason]

And the photo you provided was taken from directly behind. Take one from the same angle as the bullet would have to be if fired at Z190-Z200 (I estimate it to be about 18 to 19-degrees) and see if the left thigh is visible to the camera. (And just how comfortable that position would be to hold.)

This is taken from about .6 m (2 feet) behind the right top corner of the jump seat, with the shoulders turned in the position JBC is seen in z190-200.  JFK's throat exit wound was not as far right as this but the left thigh is visible from even that far right.  The key is the right turn of the shoulders that JBC had assumed.

The angle at Z195 to the SN was 15.1 degrees as I measure it:

and would be less at z200.

[Charles Collins]

This is taken from about .6 m (2 feet) behind the right top corner of the jump seat, with the shoulders turned in the position JBC is seen in z190-200.  JFK's throat exit wound was not as far right as this but the left thigh is visible from even that far right.  The key is the right turn of the shoulders that JBC had assumed.

The angle at Z195 to the SN was 15.1 degrees as I measure it:

and would be less at z200.

What elevation was the camera in relation to the left shoulder? It appears to me to be about level with it.

[Andrew Mason]

here's an attempt to model a shot through Kennedy in the Z190s (Note: this is not a SBT demonstration!).

You have JFK as far right as possible. It is possible he was not that close to the right side of the car. So you have to allow for a possible range of positions that are consistent with his position in z193.

In z193 his right upper arm is extended to the right.  His forearm covers most of his upper arm, which means that his elbow is right of his shoulder and not much forward.  The shoulder appears to be inside the car, which is consistent with the elbow extending out to the right onto the top of the car.   That would put his midline at least 10 inches from the edge of the car. 

A 15 degree path from the neck exit wound over the ensuing 24.5 inches goes 6.5 inches farther left, putting the bullet 16.5 inches from the right side of the car beside JFK. On the scale drawing of the limo CE872, the middle of the jump seat is located 15 inches from the inside of the right side panel.  This is consistent with the printed dimensions which show that the width of the back seat - the distance between the inside back seat panels - was 60 inches.  So, that would mean the bullet passed about 1.5 inches left of the middle of the jump seat.  With Connally turned as he was in z193, the bullet would have gone to the left of his spine even if his spine had been pressed against the seat back, which it wasn't.   With Gov. Connally's spine somewhat forward of the seat back and his shoulders turned right as we see in z193, I suggest that was enough to miss his turned back entirely. It may have grazed the back of his jacket as it was tumbling.

Mason has the entire torso, including the waist, turned. But the waist area would be more or less untwisted.

It passed above the waist.  The thigh wound was above the waist and the bullet was moving downward from JFK.

Mason needs that area out of the way so his bullet can get pass Connally and strike the thigh. He's also claiming fragment strikes to the "wall" in front of Connally and to the driver-side sun-visor. No such such damage (holes) was reported in those areas.

I am not "claiming" fragment strikes. We are dealing with CE399!  I suggest that CE399 stuck in JBC's left thigh but all we know is that it fell out of his thigh at some point because it was found on his stretcher.  So maybe it stayed in and fell out as he was placed onto the stretcher or removed from it.  Maybe it  struck the hard wood panel in front at a few feet per second and bounced back onto his lap.  We really don't know what it did.  But it was not a fragment and at slow speed there is no assurance that the bullet would make a mark. (As far as I know, the front panel was not tested for lead or copper residue).

There were fragment strikes to the windshield and windshield frame but these were not caused by CE399!

In my view, the best evidence is that this damage occurred on the second shot.  That fits what James Tague said (that there was a shot after he was struck) and Greer who reported hearing a kind of concussion on the second shot, which is consistent with the damage to the windshield and frame.  The best photos of the underside of the flipped-up left sunvisor were taken at Parkland before they put the roof on:

It is not a great photo of the detail on the surface but there are some unusual marks that are consistent with damage to the underside of the left visor.  I have been unable to verify that the sunvisors were inspected for damage.  It seems not outlandish to think that a spray of fragments that struck the windshield, frame and went over the windshield to strike the curb near James Tague also struck the visor.  However, that remains to be verified.