The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

I couldn't agree more with you Charles, for me the Z-film is the benchmark against which witness evidence should be tested.
You're idea of a shot @ z130's has been utterly refuted in this thread using the Z-film but it seems to have made little difference to your point of view.

Can you cite a witness account that I have used in an attempt to rule out what can be seen in the Zapruder film?

And specifically what is it that you believe is shown in the Zapruder film that would “utterly refute” the shot around the Z133 time?

[Dan O'meara]

What do we see in the Willis photo that proves it was taken simultaneously with the first shot?

I see some things that suggest it was taken well after the first shot:

• Mrs. Kennedy and the Connallys are looking to their right; all said they turned their heads in reaction to hearing the first shot; the Connallys beginning in the Z160s and Mrs. Kennedy in the Z170s.
  

The reason they are looking to their right is because the crowds are to their right, there is just an empty space to the left with the odd person to their right. Watch the Z-film, as they enter the area with no-one to their left heads turn right. Why would they be looking into an unoccupied area?

Willis05 was taken at Z202. Willis himself stated:

    "Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of
     the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just
     snap in that direction ... she turned to the right toward him."

I like the way you criticise Willis so much but are willing to quote him when necessary. You've missed that Jackie's head turn to the right begins @ z174 further undermining Willis' observations.

• Agent John Ready is looking off to his right; he also said he did this in response to the first shot.
  

I'm pretty sure we've been here before.
Ready does not say he turns to the right.
He says he turns to the right rear. He says he looks behind him.
It's mildly annoying you won't be corrected on this.

My timing of the Willis photo is that it was taken about 2.4 seconds after the first shot and 1.14 seconds before the second shot. If it happened that way, the Willis photo was "simultaneous" with the first two shots, but not a particular shot. Willis was sort of telling the truth, Ted Cruz-style.

To imagine the SS agents riding on the follow up car took so long to react is ridiculous. It's utterly ridiculous. We see the reaction in Altgens 6, it matches perfectly with their own testimony and is confirmed by other testimony. This has been dealt with at length in this thread but you refuse to deal with it.[/list]

[Dan O'meara]

Can you cite a witness account that I have used in an attempt to rule out what can be seen in the Zapruder film?

And specifically what is it that you believe is shown in the Zapruder film that would “utterly refute” the shot around the Z133 time?

Start at the beginning of this thread. The testimonies of the SS agents riding in the follow up car alone refutes it. You have not dealt with any of the arguments presented in this thread that rule out a shot so early.

[Charles Collins]

Start at the beginning of this thread. The testimonies of the SS agents riding in the follow up car alone refutes it. You have not dealt with any of the arguments presented in this thread that rule out a shot so early.

I already addressed your opinion about this. You disagreed. And now you claim that I haven’t dealt with it. Your interpretation of the instant in time depicted in the Altgens photo is your opinion. And your opinion of that, in no way whatsoever, utterly refutes the evidence that has been presented suggesting a shot around Z133. I have good company in my assessment. See Max Holland’s documentary “The Lost Bullet” for a better presentation than I can provide on my own. The main difference between his and my viewpoints is that he believes the bullet hit the traffic signal which caused it to miss the target. While I believe the likelihood of interference in the sniper’s nest caused an inadvertent shot (before the shot was fully aimed).

[Dan O'meara]

I already addressed your opinion about this. You disagreed. And now you claim that I haven’t dealt with it. Your interpretation of the instant in time depicted in the Altgens photo is your opinion. And your opinion of that, in no way whatsoever, utterly refutes the evidence that has been presented suggesting a shot around Z133. I have good company in my assessment. See Max Holland’s documentary “The Lost Bullet” for a better presentation than I can provide on my own. The main difference between his and my viewpoints is that he believes the bullet hit the traffic signal which caused it to miss the target. While I believe the likelihood of interference in the sniper’s nest caused an inadvertent shot (before the shot was fully aimed).

Who's talking about opinions?
Agents Landis, Ready and Hickey describe looking behind them to their right after the first shot, exactly what we see in Altgens 6. Two of them use the word 'immediately'. This is not my opinion,
The Z-film shows no such reaction up to z207, 4 seconds after you're proposed shot. This is not my opinion.
Question - How can a shot in the z130's be justified in this scenario?
Answer - It can't.
How have you dealt with this?

[Dan O'meara]

Then when did the Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy turn their heads to their right in reaction, they said, to hearing the first shot? Before Zapruder started filming?

Jackie Kennedy says she turned to the right after hearing JBC yell "Oh no no" and Mrs Connally says she turned around after hearing a 'frightening noise' and saw that JFK "had both hands at his neck", both testimonies you hold so dear refute what you propose.

Corrected on what?

At least twice now you have used agent Ready looking to his right as confirmation of his testimony about which way he looked after hearing the first shot. But this is not the case, he states that he looks to his right rear, he looks behind him but you use him looking to his right as support for an early shot. This is what I'm correcting you on. Agents on the left of the follow up car look mainly to the left, agents on the right look mainly to the right (at least in the Z-film). This does not mean they are reacting to a shot. When they look behind them, as in Altgens 6, we can assume they are reacting to a shot.

You want me to believe that Ready heard the first shot and turned around just before the Altgens photo?

Yes I do Jerry. I would really like it if we were singing from the same hymn sheet. Your ability with graphics alone would be a massive boost to any model being proposed.

You maybe shouldn't take the agents' "immediately" statements so literal.

Maybe you should.

Ready, for example, didn't claim he looked back after the first shot:

    "I heard what appeared to be fire crackers going off from my position.
     I immediately turned to my right rear trying to locate the source but
     was not able to determine the exact location."

The words "fire crackers" are plural.

What are you suggesting here? That Ready heard one 'firecracker' then, after a couple of seconds heard another and then he decided to react. Really?

Wow, you ready believe the first shot was a little bit before the Altgens photo.

I assume you mean I 'really' believe the first shot was just before Altgens 6. Yes I do Jerry and as funny as you find it I can back it up.
The Z-film and Altgens 6 refute your suspect belief in an early shot and there's no way around it.

[Andrew Mason]

You're welcome. BTW, I'm not denying a majority of witnesses felt a certain way about the shot spanning and that they were honest in their reporting. I just don't think we should use such samplings from any shot-spanning group. It's a minor detail likely not measured in real time.

Which is where we disagree.  I know you don't think the evidence is persuasive, (along with Betzner, Croft, Willis, the first shot-hit witnesses and first shot location witnesses) but I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to disagree with you.  It appears that you do.

Also: "1.....2...3" looks pretty evenly-spaced to me.

5:3 (1.67:1) is evenly spaced? The spacing at 197, 272, 313 is more like 1.8:1

The Zapruder film shows she can't see Kennedy at all during the time of your first shot.

I don't know how you think she came to give evidence about seeing JFK slump and clutch at his throat, do you?  It cannot be that she imagined seeing it but didn't and it is just a coincidence that this is what we actually see in the zfilm.  The only other possibility is that someone told her to say this and the 14 year old girl lied to the Warren Commission about seeing it herself.  Good luck finding evidence of that.  So did all the other 20 people who reported the same thing lie the same way? Who would have an interest in saying this?

What else could that be? How about Johnson left arm reaching forward to grip or rest on the top of the front seat? The dark upright shape in front of Johnson's head is the back of Youngblood's head. Youngblood is turned to his right talking to Johnson who's leaning in to listen.

There is definitely something over the back of the front seat that is between Ladybird and LBJ:



You may notice that Johnson is very far to the car left and the space between Ladybird and LBJ is greater than that between Yarborough and Ladybird.  Might that be because that large dark thing in between them happens to be SA Youngblood climbing over just like he said he did after the first shot?

Since Z271 has directional blur, how about we compare Z272 to a clearer frame?

There is a change of car angle between those two frames. Besides, the visor over the driver side is the one that was hit:


Lets look at the change in the driver's visor (and, while we are at it, in JBC's wrist) between z271 and 272:

Just that Hickey (and Kinney) can't possibly see to that area of the head at that moment. This is such an old chestnut.

Well, it is kind of amazing that JFK's hair actually did fly up without causing any damage just before the head shot, as Hickey said.  He did not see what he said he saw and yet what he said he saw actually happened.  You have not tried to explain that.

Wrong again. Connally actually moves across more of the width of the car before Z278 than after.

JBC moves. Watch the change in position of JBC from z271 to z279 relative to Nellie and Jackie who do not move at all.  Now compare that to the position of Kellerman relative to Nellie and Greer. There is no change in position of Kellerman: