The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

What's "testable" about "both Connally and JFK were shot through at z223" made as an absolute statement of fact based upon nothing other than "looks that way to me".

This is like you insisting that an ink-blot is an image of two dogs fighting and in order to "contribute", I have to make up a story about it being a squirrel on a fencepost instead of just pointing out that it's an inkblot.

More misrepresentation from the man who never misrepresents my work.
You lack the courage to take on the work and all the arguments I present on this thread.
Instead you misrepresent the whole thread with some asinine, meaningless lie.
Then complain about how you can't contribute.
You seem to forget that the forum is a record of the ideas presented here. Anyone can go to the beginning of this thread and read through it. Whether they agree or not they will see the work I've put in and the spineless, childish little 'contributions' by yourself.

[Andrew Mason]

Phil Willis was a car salesman who was promoting the commercial set of slides he took in Dealey Plaza that day,...


.....Rosemary said she stopped after hearing the first shot. She does that before Z200.

....Betzner recalls only two shots, one after he took his photo on Elm and the head shot:

    "I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise."

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in frame 207, he continues to lower his camera and is not looking down. So Betzner winding his camera as he hears a shot isn't proof of your first shot at ca.Z200.

...[Hughes]..
That doesn't work well with your first shot occurring about one-second later because Hughes says he stopped filming about five seconds before the shots were heard. Now in my scenario, he might not have been alarmed at a first shot in the Z150s, and instead took the hypothetical Z220s second shot for the first shot. That's about 2.25 seconds after Z180.

I see.  So these witnesses:

• Betzner taking his photo at z186 and recalling that it was before the first shot;
• Rosemary Willis suddenly turning her head from z200-207 toward the TSBD, which she said she did on hearing the first shot (her feet stop at z198, by the way).
  
• Phil Willis recalling that his photo was taken an instant after the first shot
• Hughes recalling a pause after stopping filming and the sound of the first shot (this sequence ends with the rear wheel of the president's limo passing where JFK passed at z160 so that looks like about z168 to me).
• And Jack Ready removing his right hand from the front hand-hold as he begins to turn and as he said he did in response to the first shot

were all wrong because their recollections do not fit with the early first shot miss at z150-160 that you hypothesize.

What about all the witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot (20+) by moving left, changing expression, clutching his chest/neck?  Where are the witnesses who recalled JFK smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds after the first shot? (z150-z207)  Where are they Jerry?[/list]

[Dan O'meara]

I see.  So these witnesses:


• Betzner taking his photo at z186 and recalling that it was before the first shot;
• Rosemary Willis suddenly turning her head from z200-207 toward the TSBD, which she said she did on hearing the first shot (her feet stop at z198, by the way).
  
• Phil Willis recalling that his photo was taken an instant after the first shot
• Hughes recalling a pause after stopping filming and the sound of the first shot (this sequence ends with the rear wheel of the president's limo passing where JFK passed at z160 so that looks like about z168 to me).
• And Jack Ready removing his right hand from the front hand-hold as he begins to turn and as he said he did in response to the first shot
were all wrong because their recollections do not fit with the early first shot miss at z150-160 that you hypothesize.

What about all the witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot (20+) by moving left, changing expression, clutching his chest/neck?  Where are the witnesses who recalled JFK smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds after the first shot? (z150-z207)  Where are they Jerry?

Hi Andrew, I certainly have to agree that the available evidence rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The opening post of this thread focusses on the SS follow-up car behind the Presidential limo and compares it to the clear reactions of the SS agents in Altgens 6. Rufus Youngblood describes the first shot as an 'explosive noise', agents Ready and  Landis describe reacting 'immediately' but in the Z-film, which shows these agents up to z207 no such reaction can be seen. For me this certainly rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The same clip also shows Rosemary Willis 'reacting' to the sound of a shot while a carload of SS agents show no reaction. I find this highly unlikely.
You make a point about Jack Ready but the Z-film, as I see it, doesn't show Ready distinctly turning to his right. He looks to his left then slowly moves his head right but we certainly don't see him turning to his "right rear". To me it looks like a perfectly normal head turn as he scans the crowd.
I'm not 100% sure about the points you're making about Betzner and Hughes (I'm possibly being a bit slow here)
Phil Willis comes across as a credible witness who seems to 'timestamp' the moment of the first shot but I personally would like more evidence that backs up his statement as it's not enough to rely on a single witness.
The problem with this issue is that there are so many contradictory 'ear-witness' statements. On his website, Pat Speers analyses a comprehensive list of witnesses relating to the assassination:

"...we’ve looked at the words of 293 witnesses to see if they add up to something. Of this 293, 88 failed to tell us much that would indicate when and how the shots were fired. Of the remaining 205, 102 made statements suggesting there were three shots fired, with the first shot being heard between Z-190 and Z-224 and the last 2 shots being heard in rapid succession after a short pause. Another 57 made statements suggesting that the first shot was heard between Z-190 and Z-224, but made no statements indicating the last two shots were bunched together. Another 13 heard the last two shots fired closely together, and yet another could only swear to hearing two shots, but thought there may have been a third, which was wholly consistent with the last two being fired closely together. This means that 173 of the 205 witnesses described the shots in a relatively consistent manner. Of the remaining 32, 18 heard four or more shots, and another 3 made statements indicating there was a shot after the head shot."


My challenge is to get, what I believe to be, the best fit between the ear-witness statements and any evidence that can be gleaned from photographic/video evidence.

[John Tonkovich]

Hi Andrew, I certainly have to agree that the available evidence rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The opening post of this thread focusses on the SS follow-up car behind the Presidential limo and compares it to the clear reactions of the SS agents in Altgens 6. Rufus Youngblood describes the first shot as an 'explosive noise', agents Ready and  Landis describe reacting 'immediately' but in the Z-film, which shows these agents up to z270 no such reaction can be seen. For me this certainly rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The same clip also shows Rosemary Willis 'reacting' to the sound of a shot while a carload of SS agents show no reaction. I find this highly unlikely.
You make a point about Jack Ready but the Z-film, as I see it, doesn't show Ready distinctly turning to his right. He looks to his left then slowly moves his head right but we certainly don't see him turning to his "right rear". To me it looks like a perfectly normal head turn as he scans the crowd.
I'm not 100% sure about the points you're making about Betzner and Hughes (I'm possibly being a bit slow here)
Phil Willis comes across as a credible witness who seems to 'timestamp' the moment of the first shot but I personally would like more evidence that backs up his statement as it's not enough to rely on a single witness.
The problem with this issue is that there are so many contradictory 'ear-witness' statements. On his website, Pat Speers analyses a comprehensive list of witnesses relating to the assassination:

"...we’ve looked at the words of 293 witnesses to see if they add up to something. Of this 293, 88 failed to tell us much that would indicate when and how the shots were fired. Of the remaining 205, 102 made statements suggesting there were three shots fired, with the first shot being heard between Z-190 and Z-224 and the last 2 shots being heard in rapid succession after a short pause. Another 57 made statements suggesting that the first shot was heard between Z-190 and Z-224, but made no statements indicating the last two shots were bunched together. Another 13 heard the last two shots fired closely together, and yet another could only swear to hearing two shots, but thought there may have been a third, which was wholly consistent with the last two being fired closely together. This means that 173 of the 205 witnesses described the shots in a relatively consistent manner. Of the remaining 32, 18 heard four or more shots, and another 3 made statements indicating there was a shot after the head shot."


My challenge is to get, what I believe to be, the best fit between the ear-witness statements and any evidence that can be gleaned from photographic/video evidence.

Altgens is your friend. ( Or should be.)
Please review his testimony. Thx.

[Dan O'meara]

Altgens is your friend. ( Or should be.)
Please review his testimony. Thx.

I'm aware you put a lot of stock in Altgens' testimony but I don't understand why. He describes taking a photo just after the first 'noise'. As I understand it he is describing Altgens 6, a photo taken just after the first audible shot. He then goes on to describe the shot at z313. I'm not sure what you're reading in his testimony that I'm missing.

[John Tonkovich]

In his testimony, Altgens was only sure of two shots, but guessed there could have been a third shot that fitted in between the shot he heard before he took the photo at Z255 and the head shot. Mason places his LN second shot (it narrowly misses Kennedy, going on to strike Connally) about Z271.

In 1985, "Ike" Altgens told Richard B. trask:

    "My first instinct was ‘well, they’re shooting firecrackers up there,’
     or some kind of celebration on behalf of the President. And then
     I hear it again as the car comes on down."

So here Altgens claims he heard "firecrackers up there" (or "some kind of celebration", presumably referring to the sound of a shot -- though Altgens didn't know at that moment it was gunfire -- when the car was on upper Elm), then heard it again as the "car comes on down" which I believe would be when he took his picture.

Therefore there could have been two shots fired before Altgens took his photograph at Z255.

Who is this "Mason " you mention?
Also, there could have been 129 shots fired, with s suppressor, before Z255.
Thankfully, the SS and FBI helped us out by commissioning two separate surveys, which placed only three shots (and hits) including a final shot at 4 + 95.
The West surveys, presented by the late Thomas Purvis, are a great read.

[Dan O'meara]

Who is this "Mason " you mention?

This really shows how much you read through the thread before posting