The First Shot

[John Iacoletti]

So your whole “common sense” argument boils down to you believing Dishong’s “family” (who weren’t there) in identifying June from the rear over Westbrook’s (who was there) identification of herself. That and your presumption that going to see the motorcade together somehow requires standing in a line shoulder-to-shoulder with each other with nobody in between.

But even if you could somehow prove that is Dishong and that the other woman is not Calvery, it tells you nothing about who the blue scarf lady is.

[John Iacoletti]

Incidentally, credit for first finding the school photos of Holt was given to Stan Dane. I was the one (to my knowledge) who first found the yearbook photo of the correct Sharon Simmons.

[Zeon Mason]

@ Andrew Mason: The 3 witness accounts you just posted in bold print all indicate they are seeing JFK MOVING as they heard the 1st shot fired. Its “ducking, “slumping” , leaning over” etc that many witness said occurred either at the 1st shot or between shot 1 and 2.

Harold Norman has the similar sequence  of hearing the 1st shot, then seeing JFK “slump” then hearing the next 2 shots.

There has to be SOMETHING at Z226 causing JBC right shoulder to move rapidly FORWARD and rotating his body in the direction as would be expected by a bullet impacting him to right of his  centerline of mass.

That rotation is happening at approx Z 226 and with the coincidental flap of the jacket lapel at that point also, it’s a reasonable conclusion imo that it’s  bullet striking his right shoulder.

So your sequence of shots if Z 195, then Z 278 then 313, does NOT account for the SOMETHING ( imo a bullet impact) that is causing JBC right shoulder to rotate FORWARD at Z226.

The only way I can see to resolve this is that a 2nd shooter was involved who shot JBC at X226 from a different angle in which JFK is not an obstruction.

Also what about the wrist wound of JBC?

I don’t see how that could be at Z 275-278 when his right hand is up and gripping his hat because the bullet would have likely gone thru the hat as well as splatter some blood on the hat.

It works much better at  Z226 because theoretically there is a position for JBCs right hand holding the hat upside down with the rim of the hat held on top of his left thigh, the well of the hat hanging down off the LEFT side of his thigh.

In that position the bullet striking the top of his wrist and exiting the bottom of his palm goes directly into his right side inner thigh muscle Without any splattering of blood on the hat or any hole in the hat.

[Andrew Mason]

@ Andrew Mason: The 3 witness accounts you just posted in bold print all indicate they are seeing JFK MOVING as they heard the 1st shot fired. Its “ducking, “slumping” , leaning over” etc that many witness said occurred either at the 1st shot or between shot 1 and 2.

Harold Norman has the similar sequence  of hearing the 1st shot, then seeing JFK “slump” then hearing the next 2 shots.

There has to be SOMETHING at Z226 causing JBC right shoulder to move rapidly FORWARD and rotating his body in the direction as would be expected by a bullet impacting him to right of his  centerline of mass.

Exactly. JBC said after the first shot he turned around to his right to check on the President. What he is doing from z226 to z270 appears to be consistent with his turn to try to see JFK. 
He appears to be shouting something around z245 because his mouth opens and Jackie turns away from JFK directly toward JBC.

If you disagree, perhaps you can tell us where you see JBC turning around to see JFK.

This is all corroborated by Nellie.  Nellie said he yelled "Oh, no, no" after the first and before the second shot that she saw strike her husband. She also said she looked back at JFK and saw him with his hands at his neck after the first and before the second. She said she never looked back after the second shot. She is looking back until about z270.

Also what about the wrist wound of JBC?

I don’t see how that could be at Z 275-278 when his right hand is up and gripping his hat because the bullet would have likely gone thru the hat as well as splatter some blood on the hat.

All exit wounds are covered by clothing. The wrist is covered by a French cuff. The bullet struck the back of the radius through the French cuff and would have deflected away from the point of contact. The only blood that would result from the bullet striking the wrist would be minimal. After the wound is made the bleeding wound be significant but not the making of the wound itself.

It works much better at  Z226 because theoretically there is a position for JBCs right hand holding the hat upside down with the rim of the hat held on top of his left thigh, the well of the hat hanging down off the LEFT side of his thigh.

In that position the bullet striking the top of his wrist and exiting the bottom of his palm goes directly into his right side inner thigh muscle Without any splattering of blood on the hat or any hole in the hat.

That scenario does not fit several large bodies of evidence, particularly the 1 .....2...3 shot pattern, JFK being hit on the first shot and JBC on the second with the head shot being the third and last shot

[Andrew Mason]

So your whole “common sense” argument boils down to you believing Dishong’s “family” (who weren’t there) in identifying June from the rear over Westbrook’s (who was there) identification of herself. That and your presumption that going to see the motorcade together somehow requires standing in a line shoulder-to-shoulder with each other with nobody in between.

But even if you could somehow prove that is Dishong and that the other woman is not Calvery, it tells you nothing about who the blue scarf lady is.

Dishong is identified by her own description of what she is wearing and by her previous self-identification to family members from photos in Life.

Dishong stated in her own hand writing:

"He drops his arm as they
go by - possibly 20 feet.
Suddenly - a sound.
Gun shots? So hard to tell above
the clamor of the crowd.

The President bent forward into
his wife’s lap as his arm
slipped off the side of the
car."

The last part is interesting. She says the right arm slipped off the car AFTER the first shot sounded. Since his right arm is not on the side of the car when he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign, his emergence there would have to be after the first shot - if Dishong was right.

[Zeon Mason]

Andrew , the way it appears to me,  at approx Z 226 , JBC right shoulder is moving FORWARD and his torso is rotating counterclockwise.

That’s NOT  JBC turning ClOCKWISE , which is the way he must turn to look over his right shoulder.

Imo, JBC is HIT at Z 226 approx. This causes the forward and counterclockwise turn of his body which continues up UNTIL about Z 250-260

It is at that point when JBCs left hand with hat starts to go up and then at THAT point is when he starts to try to turn In the CLOCKWISE turn (reverse rotation) which is him attempting to look over his right shoulder at JFK, and after which  he falls into Mrs Connallys lap.

In Dans scenario , as I understand it, the
 shot sequence is  1st shot Z 224, 2nd shot =head hit at Z 313, (4.8 secs later) and then a 3rd shot which MISSED at 1-2 secs AFTER 313.

That fits the 1….2..3 sequence.

If I’m mistaken about Dans sequence and
it’s a 2nd shot  BETWEEN Z 226 and Z 313 then that 2nd shot would be approx Z285  so that is just 1 sec Before Z313 . That never the less  would ALSO fit the 1….2..3 sequence

Andrew, your scenario however, does  NOT (imo) account for JBCs right shoulder rotating counterclockwise beginning AT 226 and continuing in that same rotation until about Z 250.

[Andrew Mason]

Andrew , the way it appears to me,  at approx Z 226 , JBC right shoulder is moving FORWARD and his torso is rotating counterclockwise.

That’s NOT  JBC turning ClOCKWISE , which is the way he must turn to look over his right shoulder.

Imo, JBC is HIT at Z 226 approx. This causes the forward and counterclockwise turn of his body which continues up UNTIL about Z 250-260

It is at that point when JBCs left hand with hat starts to go up and then at THAT point is when he starts to try to turn In the CLOCKWISE turn (reverse rotation) which is him attempting to look over his right shoulder at JFK, and after which  he falls into Mrs Connallys lap.

In Dans scenario , as I understand it, the
 shot sequence is  1st shot Z 224, 2nd shot =head hit at Z 313, (4.8 secs later) and then a 3rd shot which MISSED at 1-2 secs AFTER 313.

That fits the 1….2..3 sequence.

If I’m mistaken about Dans sequence and
it’s a 2nd shot  BETWEEN Z 226 and Z 313 then that 2nd shot would be approx Z285  so that is just 1 sec Before Z313 . That never the less  would ALSO fit the 1….2..3 sequence

Andrew, your scenario however, does  NOT (imo) account for JBCs right shoulder rotating counterclockwise beginning AT 226 and continuing in that same rotation until about Z 250.

At z226 he is leaning to the right. The right shoulder movement is at the same time as he raises his right arm and leans forward, which he has to do in order to turn around to the rear. He seems to be straightening up and giving himself room to turn around to see JFK.

You are reading a lot into some very tiny movements and ignoring the big picture:

• Again, where do you see JBC turning around and trying to see JFK?
• The second shot striking JFK in the head does not fit the evidence that JBC was hit on the second shot. This comes from the Connallys, Powers, Greer, Gayle Newman.
• Besides there is strong evidence that the head shot was the last and very little evidence to the contrary.  See my post #1151 in this thread.

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