Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"

[Michael T. Griffith]

Right on.
So now it's termed "unreliable" -- LOL.  The continued desperate attempts to make unpleasant evidence go away have been duly noted.

Umm, so does this mean you're never going to explain why you insist on using the Decker crosstalk as the time indicator instead of the dispatcher time notations, Fisher's simultaneous crosstalk, and Curry's two transmissions on Channel 2?

For the sake of others who are viewing this thread, let me explain why Mr. Beck keeps ducking this straightforward question.

Beck and others use Decker's crosstalk as their time indicator because if we time the dictabelt gunshots according to Decker's crosstalk, this means the gunshots were recorded about 60 seconds after the assassination and therefore cannot be gunshots but must be random noise. But this timing is refuted by considerable evidence.

For starters, Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk, which occurs simultaneously on both channels, occurs 2 seconds before the first dictabelt gunshot on Channel 1, and about 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All five gunshot impulse patterns occur on Channel 1.

Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs 6 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 2 seconds after Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk.

Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission occurs 12 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 18 seconds after his “triple underpass” transmission. This is key evidence because we know that Curry made the “to the hospital” transmission while still in Dealey Plaza, just after he heard gunfire. We also know that after the first hit on JFK, Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman, riding in JFK’s limo, radioed Secret Service agent Winston Lawson, who was sitting next to Curry in the lead car, and told Lawson that Kennedy was hit and ordered Lawson to go to the hospital. Thus, it is no surprise that Curry quickly gave his “to the hospital” order.

The final gunshot on the dictabelt occurs 2-3 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All the dictabelt gunshots occur between Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission and his “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. The gunshots begin almost simultaneously with Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission.

Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk occurs on Channel 1 a split-second after the last dictabelt gunshot, but it was originally broadcast on Channel 2 about 60 seconds later. This is where we need to talk about time offsets, because the offsets prove that Decker's crosstalk is a very unreliable time indicator.

There are four crosstalk time offsets between Channel 1 and Channel 2:

-- An 89-second offset between Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk and Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk.
-- A 31-second offset between Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk and Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk.
-- A 3-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.
-- A 24-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.

Notice that the Decker crosstalk is the most offset of the crosstalk events, that its offsets are larger than the others. Its offsets are 89 seconds and 31 seconds, whereas the Bellah offsets are 24 seconds and 3 seconds.

To explain the Decker-Bellah offset, the NRC panel erroneously theorized that Channel 2’s recorder must have stopped for 31 seconds between the 12:30 and 12:32 time notations. But this is impossible because Channel 2 was, understandably, very busy from 12:30 onward, for several minutes, and Channel 2’s recording machine only stopped during dead spaces (i.e., when no one was talking).

If we assume that the 31-second time offset was caused by stylus displacement on Channel 1, instead of recorder stoppage on Channel 2, this would explain why the “hold everything” crosstalk was recorded on Channel 1 earlier than it was recorded on Channel 2. Simply put, this would mean that the “hold everything” crosstalk is worthless as a time indicator because stylus displacement on Channel 1 put it on Channel 1 earlier than it should have been placed there. The stylus-displacement theory also fits the time notations.

But if we go with the recorder-stoppage theory, this throws the 12:30-12:33 transmissions out of alignment and does not fit the time notations. The 12:32 time notation occurs almost exactly 2 minutes after the 12:30 time notation, and the 12:36 time notation comes almost exactly 6 minutes after the 12:30 time notation. But if we accept the recorder-stoppage theory, this severely skews the time notations, but we know the time notations are consistent with each other to within a few seconds.

Suffice it to say that the time offsets alone prove that Decker’s crosstalk is not a reliable time indicator. But those who reject the acoustical evidence dismiss the gunfire timeframe indicated by the Fisher crosstalk, the time notations, and the two assassination-period Curry transmissions. Instead, they insist on using Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as their time indicator because it gives them a basis, albeit a bogus one, to claim that the dictabelt gunshots occurred about 60 seconds after the assassination. It also serves as their excuse for not explaining the powerful, intricate correlations between the dictabelt gunshots and the gunshots from the Dealey Plaza test firing.

Importantly, as mentioned earlier, the Fisher crosstalk is simultaneous, i.e., it occurs at the same time on Channel 1 that it does on Channel 2. This is crucial because Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk comes 2 seconds before the first dictabelt shot, 2 seconds before Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation, and 20 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission. Thus, Fisher’s crosstalk serves as an excellent time indicator and as a way to correlate the timing of key transmission on the two channels. It also establishes when the shots occurred in relation to (1) the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, (2) Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission on Channel 2, and (3) Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. 

Impressively, if we use the Bellah crosstalk to establish a time correlation between the two channels and track backward to Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, then we again find that the gunfire begins on Channel 1 at virtually the same time that Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs on Channel 2, and that the gunfire ends about 10 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. This is telling because this timing agrees with the timing established by the Fisher crosstalk.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Humm, still no answer from the acoustical evidence deniers.

Umm, so does this mean you're never going to explain why you insist on using the Decker crosstalk as the time indicator instead of the dispatcher time notations, Fisher's simultaneous crosstalk, and Curry's two transmissions on Channel 2?

For the sake of others who are viewing this thread, let me explain why Mr. Beck keeps ducking this straightforward question.

Beck and others use Decker's crosstalk as their time indicator because if we time the dictabelt gunshots according to Decker's crosstalk, this means the gunshots were recorded about 60 seconds after the assassination and therefore cannot be gunshots but must be random noise. But this timing is refuted by considerable evidence.

For starters, Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk, which occurs simultaneously on both channels, occurs 2 seconds before the first dictabelt gunshot on Channel 1, and about 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All five gunshot impulse patterns occur on Channel 1.

Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs 6 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 2 seconds after Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk.

Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission occurs 12 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 18 seconds after his “triple underpass” transmission. This is key evidence because we know that Curry made the “to the hospital” transmission while still in Dealey Plaza, just after he heard gunfire. We also know that after the first hit on JFK, Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman, riding in JFK’s limo, radioed Secret Service agent Winston Lawson, who was sitting next to Curry in the lead car, and told Lawson that Kennedy was hit and ordered Lawson to go to the hospital. Thus, it is no surprise that Curry quickly gave his “to the hospital” order.

The final gunshot on the dictabelt occurs 2-3 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All the dictabelt gunshots occur between Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission and his “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. The gunshots begin almost simultaneously with Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission.

Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk occurs on Channel 1 a split-second after the last dictabelt gunshot, but it was originally broadcast on Channel 2 about 60 seconds later. This is where we need to talk about time offsets, because the offsets prove that Decker's crosstalk is a very unreliable time indicator.

There are four crosstalk time offsets between Channel 1 and Channel 2:

-- An 89-second offset between Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk and Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk.
-- A 31-second offset between Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk and Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk.
-- A 3-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.
-- A 24-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.

Notice that the Decker crosstalk is the most offset of the crosstalk events, that its offsets are larger than the others. Its offsets are 89 seconds and 31 seconds, whereas the Bellah offsets are 24 seconds and 3 seconds.

To explain the Decker-Bellah offset, the NRC panel erroneously theorized that Channel 2’s recorder must have stopped for 31 seconds between the 12:30 and 12:32 time notations. But this is impossible because Channel 2 was, understandably, very busy from 12:30 onward, for several minutes, and Channel 2’s recording machine only stopped during dead spaces (i.e., when no one was talking).

If we assume that the 31-second time offset was caused by stylus displacement on Channel 1, instead of recorder stoppage on Channel 2, this would explain why the “hold everything” crosstalk was recorded on Channel 1 earlier than it was recorded on Channel 2. Simply put, this would mean that the “hold everything” crosstalk is worthless as a time indicator because stylus displacement on Channel 1 put it on Channel 1 earlier than it should have been placed there. The stylus-displacement theory also fits the time notations.

But if we go with the recorder-stoppage theory, this throws the 12:30-12:33 transmissions out of alignment and does not fit the time notations. The 12:32 time notation occurs almost exactly 2 minutes after the 12:30 time notation, and the 12:36 time notation comes almost exactly 6 minutes after the 12:30 time notation. But if we accept the recorder-stoppage theory, this severely skews the time notations, but we know the time notations are consistent with each other to within a few seconds.

Suffice it to say that the time offsets alone prove that Decker’s crosstalk is not a reliable time indicator. But those who reject the acoustical evidence dismiss the gunfire timeframe indicated by the Fisher crosstalk, the time notations, and the two assassination-period Curry transmissions. Instead, they insist on using Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as their time indicator because it gives them a basis, albeit a bogus one, to claim that the dictabelt gunshots occurred about 60 seconds after the assassination. It also serves as their excuse for not explaining the powerful, intricate correlations between the dictabelt gunshots and the gunshots from the Dealey Plaza test firing.

Importantly, as mentioned earlier, the Fisher crosstalk is simultaneous, i.e., it occurs at the same time on Channel 1 that it does on Channel 2. This is crucial because Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk comes 2 seconds before the first dictabelt shot, 2 seconds before Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation, and 20 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission. Thus, Fisher’s crosstalk serves as an excellent time indicator and as a way to correlate the timing of key transmission on the two channels. It also establishes when the shots occurred in relation to (1) the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, (2) Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission on Channel 2, and (3) Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. 

Impressively, if we use the Bellah crosstalk to establish a time correlation between the two channels and track backward to Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, then we again find that the gunfire begins on Channel 1 at virtually the same time that Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs on Channel 2, and that the gunfire ends about 10 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. This is telling because this timing agrees with the timing established by the Fisher crosstalk.

[Michael T. Griffith]

No more replies here, I refer you to the Elliott thread.

His thread is a total joke. He did nothing more than cobble together false claims made by the NRC panel, Bowles, Elliott, etc., etc., all of which were refuted years ago. Some of his arguments are patently silly and were answered by the HSCA 30 years ago.

Incredibly (but not surprisingly), he does not even address the core of the acoustical evidence, namely, the fact that the echo-pattern correlations occur in the correct topographic order, the fact that the N-waves and their succeeding muzzle blasts and echoes all occur in the correct order and timespan, the fact that the shooting timespan is correct, and the fact that windshield distortions among the identified gunshots occur when they should and do not occur when they should not.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Oh my goodness! Until about half an hour ago, I had forgotten about Dr. G. Paul Chambers' fantastic chapter on the acoustical evidence in his book Head Shot: The Science Behind the JFK Assassination (New York: Prometheus Books, 2012), chapter 6.

Dr. Chambers is an internationally recognized expert in the field of shock physics and has performed extensive high-speed photographic studies of high-velocity impacts and deformations of solids as well as computer modeling of shock wave and matter interactions. He has worked as a research scientist/research director at NASA, with the Naval Surface Warfare Center, and with the Naval Research Laboratory.

Chapter 6 is one of the best explanations and defenses of the acoustical evidence you will find in print.

[Joe Elliott]

Books that Mr. Griffith considers to be poor scholarship on display.

1.   Larry Sturdivan’s “The JFK Myths”.
2.   Charles Darwin’s “On the Origin of Species”

[Joe Elliott]

His thread is a total joke. He did nothing more than cobble together false claims made by the NRC panel, Bowles, Elliott, etc., etc., all of which were refuted years ago. Some of his arguments are patently silly and were answered by the HSCA 30 years ago.

Incredibly (but not surprisingly), he does not even address the core of the acoustical evidence, namely, the fact that the echo-pattern correlations occur in the correct topographic order, the fact that the N-waves and their succeeding muzzle blasts and echoes all occur in the correct order and timespan, the fact that the shooting timespan is correct, and the fact that windshield distortions among the identified gunshots occur when they should and do not occur when they should not.

I have addressed that. So, here we go again.


To be considered good, the acoustic evidence must predict:

1.   The location of the shooter.
2.   The location that the shooter was aiming at, that is, where the bullet struck.
3.   The position of the motorcycle.


It must get all 3 correct for all the shots in order to get a passing grade. How will did they do?

1.   Using the Acoustic data, what was the location of the shooter?
Shot 1: At z176, within 10 milliseconds, there was a shot fired form the TSBD and another from the Grassy Knoll.
Shot 2: At z205, within 10 milliseconds, there was a shot fired from the TSBD and another from the Grassy Knoll.
Shot 3: At z224, there was a shot fired from the TSBD.
Shot 4: At z304, within 10 milliseconds, there was a shot fired from the Grassy Knoll and the TSBD.
Shot 5: At z313, there was a shot fired from the TSBD.

Note: I’m not making this up. Check my initial post of the following thread to look at BBN’s Exhibit F-367 where in this table they list the “Rifle Location” for each test shot that matched the 1978 Dealey Plaza tests.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2717.0.html

This correlation is atrocious. Dr. Barger’s solution? Just consider some of the correlations they found to be “False Alarms” and let’s just ignore them. And just pick the correlations that work out best as good.


2.   Using the Acoustic data, what was the location that the shooter was aiming at, that is, where did the bullet struck.
Shot 1: At z176, within 10 milliseconds, there was a shot that struck near where the limousine was at z155 (miss limousine by 21 feet),
and another shot at where the limousine would be at z313 (miss limousine by 100 feet),
and another shot near Mr. Tague (miss limousine by 360 feet)
Shot 2: At z205, both shots struck near where the limousine would be at z313, missing the limousine by 95 feet.
Shot 3: At z224, there was one shot that struck within the limousine (they are starting to get the range).
Shot 4: At z304, within 10 milliseconds, there was a shot that struck near where the limousine was at z224 (miss limousine by 70 feet)
   and at near z313 (a hit within the limousine).
Shot 5: At z313, there was a shot that struck near where the limousine was at z224 (miss limousine by 90 feet)
   and another shot at z313 (a hit within the limousine)
   and another shot at Mr. Tague again (miss limousine by 240 feet)

Note: Again, I am not making this up. Look at the table I talk of before BBN Exhibit F-367 and the map I found at:

www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol8/pdf/HSCA_Vol8_AS_2_BBN.pdf

And go about half way down, to Page 49 of 95 in the pdf document, labeled as Page 81 (listed at top of page) and Page 41 (listed at the bottom on the page).

This map shows the location of Target 1, Target 2, Target 3 and Target 4, the four targets they fired at in the 1978 Dealey Plaza shooting tests.

Again, this correlation is atrocious. Dr. Barger’s solution? Just consider some of the correlations they found to be “False Alarms” and let’s just ignore them. And just pick the correlations that work out best as good.


3.   The position of the motorcycle.

The Acoustic data found that the motorcycle was behind the limousine by 120 to 160 feet during the shooting. Finally, a result that is not totally ridiculous.

But would making a good prediction on just 1 out of 3 (position of shooter, position of target, position of motorcycle) be a good a grade?


We have a theory about how to predict the path of an asteroid. But every time it predicts the asteroid is going to hit the Earth in two-week’s time, and where an asteroid is going to hit the Earth. And at what angle it is going to hit the Earth. And the velocity of the asteroid. We always find it misses the Earth, misses the location it’s going to hit the Earth, misses the angle it is going to hit the Earth, but predicts the velocity of the asteroid pretty accurately, do we have a good theory or a garbage theory?


Mr. Griffith makes a great deal about this “success” of predicting the location of the motorcycle. But let’s remember, they expected the motorcycle to be moving around 11 mph.

And that are two factors that should bring up suspicions:

1.   Given the two-week time limit to do the work, to make 2,596 comparisons and the associated calculations, is it possible they only checked the recordings where the motorcycle would have been 120 to 160 feet behind the President. That is, not check, for the “shot” at z313 at the locations the motorcycle would be predicted at z152, because of the lack of time to check all combinations. And besides, your not going to find a valid correlation there anyway. But to only look for the “shot” at z313 near where the motorcycle would be around z313. If this is the case, naturally all the correlations found would be consistent with a motorcycle trailing by 120 to 160 feet.
2.   The tired workers doing the tedious checking, might miss seeing correlations on stretches where the motorcycle “cannot be” because the motorcycle was already “found” in a previous stretch of the data.

And, this “success” is not much of a success. We know from the Hughes film and Mr. Altgens photograph at z255 that no motorcycle was not 120 to 160 feet behind the limousine, the closest was Officer McLain who was about 275 feet behind.

So, again, the consistent speed of the motorcycle, as found in the BBN’s Exhibit F-367 Table, may be an artifact of where they searched for correlations. If they only searched for correlations with the “first shot” at locations corresponding to a location 150 feet behind the limousine, and did the same with the “second shot”, and did the same with the “third”, and “fourth”, and “fifth”, then the resulting data would fit perfectly with a motorcycle trailing the limousine by 150 at an average speed of 11 mph. They won’t find any random data outside of these parameters. This conjecture explains how the data could be so bad for indicating the source of the shots, so bad for the location of where the shot struck, but so go at giving a consistent picture of a motorcycle moving at 11 mph 150 feet behind the limousine.


So yes, I do address the “core” of the acoustical evidence, namely, the fact that the echo-pattern correlations occur in the correct topographic order. My conjecture may or may not be accurate. I, and apparently you don’t know how many of the combinations of the “6 Dictabelt shots” with the “432 waveforms from the 1978 tests” were actually made. But I have addressed this issue.

[John Iacoletti]

Books that Mr. Griffith considers to be poor scholarship on display.

1.   Larry Sturdivan’s “The JFK Myths”.
2.   Charles Darwin’s “On the Origin of Species”

You wouldn’t be poisoning the well again, would you?