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Author Topic: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"  (Read 4887 times)

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2020, 02:21:57 PM »
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Doesn't work, Mike. The “Hold everything secure” cross talk Mr. Elliot is referring to, whether his belief or claim is true or false, is evidently about where on the timeline the shots appear, not whether shots were detected.

You really should avoid commenting until you have at least read the HSCA materials, which you clearly have not done. You know less than Elliott knows. I addressed the Decker "hold everything" crosstalk a few replies ago.

The Decker crosstalk only shows "where on the timeline the shots appear" if you ignore the Channel 2 dispatcher's 12:30 time notation, ignore Fisher's "I'll check" crosstalk, ignore Curry's "triple underpass" transmission, and ignore Curry's "to the hospital" transmission. Do you understand that?

I'll tell you what: Why don't you take a stab at explaining why we should pick Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as the time indicator instead of (1) the Channel 2 dispatcher's 12:30 time notation, (2) the Fisher crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes just *before* the 12:30 time notation, (3) Curry's "triple underpass" transmission, which we know also comes before the 12:30 time notation, and (4) Curry's "to the hospital" crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes 18 seconds after his "triple underpass" transmission?

You were not able to form a single meaningful sentence on your own dealing with that possible issue.

No, it's just that you were unable understand my plain English because you know next to nothing about the acoustical evidence. You only know what you've skimmed over on pro-WC websites. Because those sites do not explain the dictabelt-test firing correlations, you have no answer for those correlations.

Instead you crank out rehashed quotes you already posted a dozen times to cover up that you can't deal with the possible issue posted by Mr. Elliot.

This ignorant comment only shows that you know as little as Elliott knows on the subject, possibly less. You spew this nonsense to try to obscure the fact that you still have not addressed a single one of the correlations between the dictabelt shots and the test firing shots. I've asked going on a dozen times for you folks to address those correlations. The problem is you can't explain because your garbage pro-WC mythology sites don't explain them either.

By now you're fooling no one here with your science-babble, except maybe Mr. van de Wiel, and it's been fun exposing you.

You're talking like a teenager who's trying to one-up his dad with ignorant, rude polemic. If my arguments seem like "science-babble" to you, it's because you don't know enough to understand them, much less answer them.

So prove me wrong. Tell me why we should use Decker's crosstalk as the time indicator and ignore the dispatcher's time notation, Fisher's "I'll check" crosstalk, Curry's "triple underpass" crosstalk, and Curry's "to the hospital" transmission. Here's your chance. I'll be waiting.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 02:25:23 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2020, 02:21:57 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2020, 03:49:32 PM »
Slow down, Mike.....

We can now quote Mike:

First you need to explain why "hold everything" was recorded on the wrong place if Channel-1 was recorded continuously.

Sorry, but I'm not gonna let you duck and dodge. I posed a straightforward question to you, and you ducked it. Not only does your statement avoid the question I posed, but it shows you have no business discussing the acoustical evidence because you obviously have not read a fraction of the relevant research. Your statement is nothing but a paraphrase of the debunked argument that the "hold everything" crosstalk proves that the suspect impulse patterns were recorded after the assassination.

So, I ask you, again: Why should we pick Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as the time indicator instead of (1) the Channel 2 dispatcher's 12:30 time notation, (2) Fisher's "I'll check" simultaneous crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes just *before* the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, (3) Curry's "triple underpass" transmission on Channel 2, which we know also comes before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, and (4) Curry's "to the hospital" crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes 18 seconds after his "triple underpass" transmission on Channel 2?

I should have added a clause to that question, but I won't do so now. However, I'll mention it, just so you can have it mind for later: Why should we pick the Decker crosstalk as the time anchor when doing so misaligns *all* of the events on the two channels? As several scholars have noted, the Decker crosstalk is the most out-of-sync of all the crosstalk, yet the NRC and you NRC clones choose it as the time indicator--only because doing so puts the suspect impulse patterns after the assassination.

You see, the problem for you guys is that if we use the four abovementioned transmissions to identify the time when the suspect impulse patterns were recorded, instead of the single cherry-picked Decker transmission, we see that the gunshots were clearly, undeniably recorded during the assassination.

Just a reminder: Answer the question about why we should pick Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as the time indicator and not the four abovementioned transmissions.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 03:52:10 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2020, 04:26:59 PM »
Don't worry, I'm going nowhere.

Your question is based on the false premise that you can cherry-pick your cross talk, that's why you flunked right off the bat.

The question to be answered remains: Why is "hold everything" out-of-place if CH-1 was recorded in real time?

LOL! I should save your reply as an all-time howler.

YOU are the one cherry-picking your crosstalk! You are picking one lone crosstalk event, Decker's "hold everything" transmission, the most anomalous of all the crosstalk events, and you are ignoring the fact that (1) choosing Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as your anchor point throws *all* of the events on both channels out of alignment, (2) the Fisher and Curry crosstalk/transmissions and the dispatcher's 12:30 time notation not only synchronize with each other but show that the gunshot impulses were recorded during the assassination.

Soooo, I ask you, yet again: Why should we pick Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as the time indicator instead of (1) the Channel 2 dispatcher's 12:30 time notation, (2) Fisher's "I'll check" simultaneous crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes just *before* the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, (3) Curry's "triple underpass" transmission on Channel 2, which we know also comes before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, and (4) Curry's "to the hospital" crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes 18 seconds after his "triple underpass" transmission on Channel 2?

I am not assuming that you cherry-pick anything. I am asking you to simply explain why you choose Decker's crosstalk as your time indicator over the four transmissions that synchronize with each other and that put the gunshot impulses during the assassination.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 04:28:54 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2020, 04:26:59 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2020, 06:27:22 PM »
More Dr. Thomas fanboy babble, and your assumptions are entirely wrong.

You claim the Decker cross talk is "out-of-place".

Now you need to explain exactly what you mean by "out-of-place" and how it ended up there, Mr. Science.

Ok, only for the sake of others, I'm going to answer this, again. I say "again" because I have already addressed, several times, the issue of how Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk ended up on Channel 1 at a point just after the final gunshot on the dictabelt. This issue has been covered, like, a zillion times in the research. There are several ways that crosstalk can occur on dictabelt recordings, not just the DPD dictabelt: recorder stoppage, stylus displacement, over-recording during copying, and speed warps.

Do you really need me to explain what "out of place" means? Seriously? Well, ok. The "hold everything" crosstalk is out of place on Channel 1 because it occurs at a different time than it does on Channel 2; its broadcast time on Channel 2 is 60 seconds after Curry's "to the hospital" transmission, but its broadcast time on Channel 1 is over 60 seconds earlier.   

The gunshots occur on Channel 1. They occur right around 140 seconds after the 12:28 time notation on Channel 1, which means they occur at 12:30, just as they should.

As I've discussed several times, we can check this timing via the simultaneous Fisher crosstalk, Curry's "triple underpass" transmission, Curry's "to the hospital" transmission, and the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. The first gunshot pattern occurs just after the Fisher crosstalk and Curry's "triple underpass" transmission, and both of those transmissions occur *before* the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2.

The fact that Fisher's crosstalk is simultaneous is important because it gives us a two-channel time correlation, and it comes just before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and about 138 seconds after the 12:28 time notation on Channel 1. Furthermore, the dictabelt gunfire ends just before Curry's "to the hospital" transmission, which comes about 12 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. A perfect, powerful fit that shows clearly that the dictabelt gunfire was recorded during the assassination. 

So if you are going to continue to insist on using Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as your time indicator, you need to explain how you can do so in the face of the clear evidence that his crosstalk is totally unreliable as a time anchor, and in the face of the powerful synchronization between the gunfire, the Fisher crosstalk, the time notation on Channel 1, the time notation on Channel 2, and Curry's two transmissions.

The BBN scientists knew better than to use unreliable crosstalk events as time indicators. Instead, logically enough, they used the time notations on Channel 1 and Channel 2. The NRC panel members, not being acoustical experts, apparently did not realize they were committing an egregious error by using the most anomalous crosstalk event as their time indicator. (Or, perhaps they knew this was a bogus approach, but it was the only one that enabled them to claim that the gunfire impulses on the dictabelt were recorded after the assassination and thus "had to be" something other than gunfire.)

I have not even mentioned the Bellah crosstalk yet, which is another indicator that the dispatcher time notations are accurate and that the gunshots were recorded during the assassination.

Now, I ask you, yet again: Why should we pick Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as the time indicator instead of (1) the Channel 2 dispatcher's 12:30 time notation, (2) Fisher's "I'll check" simultaneous crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes just *before* the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, (3) Curry's "triple underpass" transmission on Channel 2, which we know also comes before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, and (4) Curry's "to the hospital" crosstalk on Channel 1, which we know comes 18 seconds after his "triple underpass" transmission on Channel 2?

« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 06:30:40 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2020, 09:14:55 PM »
More Dr. Thomas fanboy babble, and your assumptions are entirely wrong.

You claim the Decker cross talk is "out-of-place".

Now you need to explain exactly what you mean by "out-of-place" and how it ended up there, Mr. Science.

Evidence can't be out of place. Its either in place or its not evidence.

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2020, 09:14:55 PM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2020, 08:42:41 PM »
Right on.
So now it's termed "unreliable" -- LOL.  The continued desperate attempts to make unpleasant evidence go away have been duly noted.

Umm, so does this mean you're never going to explain why you insist on using the Decker crosstalk as the time indicator instead of the dispatcher time notations, Fisher's simultaneous crosstalk, and Curry's two transmissions on Channel 2?

For the sake of others who are viewing this thread, let me explain why Mr. Beck keeps ducking this straightforward question.

Beck and others use Decker's crosstalk as their time indicator because if we time the dictabelt gunshots according to Decker's crosstalk, this means the gunshots were recorded about 60 seconds after the assassination and therefore cannot be gunshots but must be random noise. But this timing is refuted by considerable evidence.

For starters, Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk, which occurs simultaneously on both channels, occurs 2 seconds before the first dictabelt gunshot on Channel 1, and about 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All five gunshot impulse patterns occur on Channel 1.

Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs 6 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 2 seconds after Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk.

Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission occurs 12 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 18 seconds after his “triple underpass” transmission. This is key evidence because we know that Curry made the “to the hospital” transmission while still in Dealey Plaza, just after he heard gunfire. We also know that after the first hit on JFK, Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman, riding in JFK’s limo, radioed Secret Service agent Winston Lawson, who was sitting next to Curry in the lead car, and told Lawson that Kennedy was hit and ordered Lawson to go to the hospital. Thus, it is no surprise that Curry quickly gave his “to the hospital” order.

The final gunshot on the dictabelt occurs 2-3 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All the dictabelt gunshots occur between Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission and his “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. The gunshots begin almost simultaneously with Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission.

Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk occurs on Channel 1 a split-second after the last dictabelt gunshot, but it was originally broadcast on Channel 2 about 60 seconds later. This is where we need to talk about time offsets, because the offsets prove that Decker's crosstalk is a very unreliable time indicator.

There are four crosstalk time offsets between Channel 1 and Channel 2:

-- An 89-second offset between Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk and Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk.
-- A 31-second offset between Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk and Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk.
-- A 3-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.
-- A 24-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.

Notice that the Decker crosstalk is the most offset of the crosstalk events, that its offsets are larger than the others. Its offsets are 89 seconds and 31 seconds, whereas the Bellah offsets are 24 seconds and 3 seconds.

To explain the Decker-Bellah offset, the NRC panel erroneously theorized that Channel 2’s recorder must have stopped for 31 seconds between the 12:30 and 12:32 time notations. But this is impossible because Channel 2 was, understandably, very busy from 12:30 onward, for several minutes, and Channel 2’s recording machine only stopped during dead spaces (i.e., when no one was talking).

If we assume that the 31-second time offset was caused by stylus displacement on Channel 1, instead of recorder stoppage on Channel 2, this would explain why the “hold everything” crosstalk was recorded on Channel 1 earlier than it was recorded on Channel 2. Simply put, this would mean that the “hold everything” crosstalk is worthless as a time indicator because stylus displacement on Channel 1 put it on Channel 1 earlier than it should have been placed there. The stylus-displacement theory also fits the time notations.

But if we go with the recorder-stoppage theory, this throws the 12:30-12:33 transmissions out of alignment and does not fit the time notations. The 12:32 time notation occurs almost exactly 2 minutes after the 12:30 time notation, and the 12:36 time notation comes almost exactly 6 minutes after the 12:30 time notation. But if we accept the recorder-stoppage theory, this severely skews the time notations, but we know the time notations are consistent with each other to within a few seconds.

Suffice it to say that the time offsets alone prove that Decker’s crosstalk is not a reliable time indicator. But those who reject the acoustical evidence dismiss the gunfire timeframe indicated by the Fisher crosstalk, the time notations, and the two assassination-period Curry transmissions. Instead, they insist on using Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as their time indicator because it gives them a basis, albeit a bogus one, to claim that the dictabelt gunshots occurred about 60 seconds after the assassination. It also serves as their excuse for not explaining the powerful, intricate correlations between the dictabelt gunshots and the gunshots from the Dealey Plaza test firing.

Importantly, as mentioned earlier, the Fisher crosstalk is simultaneous, i.e., it occurs at the same time on Channel 1 that it does on Channel 2. This is crucial because Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk comes 2 seconds before the first dictabelt shot, 2 seconds before Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation, and 20 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission. Thus, Fisher’s crosstalk serves as an excellent time indicator and as a way to correlate the timing of key transmission on the two channels. It also establishes when the shots occurred in relation to (1) the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, (2) Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission on Channel 2, and (3) Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. 

Impressively, if we use the Bellah crosstalk to establish a time correlation between the two channels and track backward to Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, then we again find that the gunfire begins on Channel 1 at virtually the same time that Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs on Channel 2, and that the gunfire ends about 10 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. This is telling because this timing agrees with the timing established by the Fisher crosstalk.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 11:10:25 AM by Michael T. Griffith »

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2020, 02:40:43 AM »
Humm, still no answer from the acoustical evidence deniers.

Umm, so does this mean you're never going to explain why you insist on using the Decker crosstalk as the time indicator instead of the dispatcher time notations, Fisher's simultaneous crosstalk, and Curry's two transmissions on Channel 2?

For the sake of others who are viewing this thread, let me explain why Mr. Beck keeps ducking this straightforward question.

Beck and others use Decker's crosstalk as their time indicator because if we time the dictabelt gunshots according to Decker's crosstalk, this means the gunshots were recorded about 60 seconds after the assassination and therefore cannot be gunshots but must be random noise. But this timing is refuted by considerable evidence.

For starters, Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk, which occurs simultaneously on both channels, occurs 2 seconds before the first dictabelt gunshot on Channel 1, and about 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All five gunshot impulse patterns occur on Channel 1.

Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs 6 seconds before the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 2 seconds after Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk.

Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission occurs 12 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2 and 18 seconds after his “triple underpass” transmission. This is key evidence because we know that Curry made the “to the hospital” transmission while still in Dealey Plaza, just after he heard gunfire. We also know that after the first hit on JFK, Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman, riding in JFK’s limo, radioed Secret Service agent Winston Lawson, who was sitting next to Curry in the lead car, and told Lawson that Kennedy was hit and ordered Lawson to go to the hospital. Thus, it is no surprise that Curry quickly gave his “to the hospital” order.

The final gunshot on the dictabelt occurs 2-3 seconds after the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2. All the dictabelt gunshots occur between Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission and his “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. The gunshots begin almost simultaneously with Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission.

Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk occurs on Channel 1 a split-second after the last dictabelt gunshot, but it was originally broadcast on Channel 2 about 60 seconds later. This is where we need to talk about time offsets, because the offsets prove that Decker's crosstalk is a very unreliable time indicator.

There are four crosstalk time offsets between Channel 1 and Channel 2:

-- An 89-second offset between Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk and Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk.
-- A 31-second offset between Decker’s “hold everything” crosstalk and Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk.
-- A 3-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.
-- A 24-second offset between Bellah’s “you want me” crosstalk and the dispatcher’s “attention all” crosstalk.

Notice that the Decker crosstalk is the most offset of the crosstalk events, that its offsets are larger than the others. Its offsets are 89 seconds and 31 seconds, whereas the Bellah offsets are 24 seconds and 3 seconds.

To explain the Decker-Bellah offset, the NRC panel erroneously theorized that Channel 2’s recorder must have stopped for 31 seconds between the 12:30 and 12:32 time notations. But this is impossible because Channel 2 was, understandably, very busy from 12:30 onward, for several minutes, and Channel 2’s recording machine only stopped during dead spaces (i.e., when no one was talking).

If we assume that the 31-second time offset was caused by stylus displacement on Channel 1, instead of recorder stoppage on Channel 2, this would explain why the “hold everything” crosstalk was recorded on Channel 1 earlier than it was recorded on Channel 2. Simply put, this would mean that the “hold everything” crosstalk is worthless as a time indicator because stylus displacement on Channel 1 put it on Channel 1 earlier than it should have been placed there. The stylus-displacement theory also fits the time notations.

But if we go with the recorder-stoppage theory, this throws the 12:30-12:33 transmissions out of alignment and does not fit the time notations. The 12:32 time notation occurs almost exactly 2 minutes after the 12:30 time notation, and the 12:36 time notation comes almost exactly 6 minutes after the 12:30 time notation. But if we accept the recorder-stoppage theory, this severely skews the time notations, but we know the time notations are consistent with each other to within a few seconds.

Suffice it to say that the time offsets alone prove that Decker’s crosstalk is not a reliable time indicator. But those who reject the acoustical evidence dismiss the gunfire timeframe indicated by the Fisher crosstalk, the time notations, and the two assassination-period Curry transmissions. Instead, they insist on using Decker's "hold everything" crosstalk as their time indicator because it gives them a basis, albeit a bogus one, to claim that the dictabelt gunshots occurred about 60 seconds after the assassination. It also serves as their excuse for not explaining the powerful, intricate correlations between the dictabelt gunshots and the gunshots from the Dealey Plaza test firing.

Importantly, as mentioned earlier, the Fisher crosstalk is simultaneous, i.e., it occurs at the same time on Channel 1 that it does on Channel 2. This is crucial because Fisher’s “I’ll check” crosstalk comes 2 seconds before the first dictabelt shot, 2 seconds before Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, 8 seconds before the 12:30 time notation, and 20 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission. Thus, Fisher’s crosstalk serves as an excellent time indicator and as a way to correlate the timing of key transmission on the two channels. It also establishes when the shots occurred in relation to (1) the 12:30 time notation on Channel 2, (2) Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission on Channel 2, and (3) Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. 

Impressively, if we use the Bellah crosstalk to establish a time correlation between the two channels and track backward to Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission, then we again find that the gunfire begins on Channel 1 at virtually the same time that Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission occurs on Channel 2, and that the gunfire ends about 10 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission on Channel 2. This is telling because this timing agrees with the timing established by the Fisher crosstalk.

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2020, 02:40:43 AM »


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Poor Scholarship on Display: Larry Sturdivan's Book "The JFK Myths"
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2020, 11:07:10 AM »
No more replies here, I refer you to the Elliott thread.

His thread is a total joke. He did nothing more than cobble together false claims made by the NRC panel, Bowles, Elliott, etc., etc., all of which were refuted years ago. Some of his arguments are patently silly and were answered by the HSCA 30 years ago.

Incredibly (but not surprisingly), he does not even address the core of the acoustical evidence, namely, the fact that the echo-pattern correlations occur in the correct topographic order, the fact that the N-waves and their succeeding muzzle blasts and echoes all occur in the correct order and timespan, the fact that the shooting timespan is correct, and the fact that windshield distortions among the identified gunshots occur when they should and do not occur when they should not.