Power cut important clarification required

[John Iacoletti]

What a basket load of gibberish.  You provide no evidence whatsoever on the topic.  And just take the usual contrarian position demanding impossible standards of proof from others.  You are suggesting we would need to verify the sign atop the TSBD was "metered" to the TSBD?  That doesn't even make any sense.  And why would anyone need to connect the sign to the elevator?

You're the one making the silly argument that the Hertz clock being illuminated at 12:30 somehow shows that Mooney and Adams were both wrong about there being no power to the elevators when they tried them.  Deal with it.

What the functional sign could show is that the power was not off in the building as some CTers have falsely interpreted the Hine testimony.

You don't get to call something "false" just because you think something else could have happened.  Condescending arrogance isn't proof of anything.  Stop presenting your speculations as facts and I'll stop pointing it out.

[Tom Scully]

What a basket load of gibberish.  You provide no evidence whatsoever on the topic.  And just take the usual contrarian position demanding impossible standards of proof from others.  You are suggesting we would need to verify the sign atop the TSBD was "metered" to the TSBD?  That doesn't even make any sense.  And why would anyone need to connect the sign to the elevator? We know that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator with no problem.  We aren't just discussing the elevators.  What the functional sign could show is that the power was not off in the building as some CTers have falsely interpreted the Hine testimony.  They suggest the lights were out (i.e. the power).  The facts are that the clock was functional as of 12:30.  The "electronic" sign was turned off in 1973 to conserve power.  Would you turn off a battery powered sign to conserve electricity?  I'm not saying it is conclusive but you have contributed absolutely nothing but lazy contrarian objections.  If you have proof of the power source, then share it.  If Gary Mack were still around, I would be glad to ask him since the 6th floor museum still has the sign, but that train has left the station.  Forget the sign and there are still numerous examples of the power and elevators being operational in this time frame.

The Hertz sign was 100 feet wide and contained 600 porcelain light bulb sockets. The cost of removal was quoted in mid 1978
as $26,000.


Hertz sign removal, May, 1979:


The time and temperature display consisted of a larger version of the basketball scoreboard common at that time and later in newer elementary and high school gyms. Since it was an outdoor display it required even brighter light bulbs than were common in scoreboards of baseball and football fields of that time. Numerical display of time and temperature is a more reliable description than digital since it was an analog display consuming considerable electric power.

From 1953, the infrastructure was in place on the TSBD roof for a devoted high voltage power line on its own independent circuit and utility meter.:


A back up battery seems an impractical and very costly enhancement. If the 600 bulbs averaged only 100 watts each,
60,000 watts plus the power requirement to keep time and sense temperature and translate both to the sign's circuitry
would increase that power load. 15 amps equal 1800 watts. 60,000/1800= 33.3 x 15 amps = 499.5 amps = 60,000 watts.
The minimum circuit to power the sign would be fused and designed for a 600 amp load, common amperage in
3 phase commercial service from the local utility. The light from those bulbs had to outshine the sun and
be visible from seven stories height. A photo sensor or timer may have signaled a rheostat to dim the sign lights
between sunset and dawn.

Your stove or clothes dryer are fed by a devoted 30 amp circuit. Try assembling and powering either from a battery pack. A battery source supplies DC current and requires an inverter to convert 12, 24, or 48 volts DC current to provide the 500 volt AC current that supplied the Hertz sign. This is a possibility but prohibitively expensive. IOW, there might be a one percent
chance the sign was equipped with battery back up or even a back up AC generator. A back up generator designed to
power a small hospital would have been required and also a secure place to locate it and a fuel supply. Fuel and the
generator would require monitoring and maintenance. A portable home generator supplies 3000 to 7500 watts, peak,
and 240 volts output is common. 600 volts requires a large commercial generator.

It is reasonable to believe the Hertz sign was metered independently of the TSBD and if someone manually switched off
some circuits powering areas of the TSBD, that the Hertz sign would have shined on. I read no persuasive argument that
power was interrupted inside the TSBD that afternoon, only much confused interpretation.

From DMN, January 4, 1982:

[Richard Smith]

You're the one making the silly argument that the Hertz clock being illuminated at 12:30 somehow shows that Mooney and Adams were both wrong about there being no power to the elevators when they tried them.  Deal with it.

You don't get to call something "false" just because you think something else could have happened.  Condescending arrogance isn't proof of anything.  Stop presenting your speculations as facts and I'll stop pointing it out.

I'll try again.  Some CTers - perhaps not yourself although it is difficult to follow since being a contrarian you won't take any position - contend that the power was off in the building based on the testimony of Hine.  Not just the elevators.  Repeat not just the elevators.  Follow along with your finger if that helps your reading comprehension.  So if the Hertz sign is on the same power source then it demonstrates that the power did not go off at 12:30 when CTers interpret Hine to make this claim because we can clearly see it is functional at that moment.  This has nothing to do with the elevators except they would not be operational if the power was off to the entire building.   Got that?  The power outage under discussion is broader than just the elevators.  There can be examples that go to the power outage and examples that go more specifically to just the elevators. You keep interjecting yourself in this discussion and trying to limit it to the elevators when that is not the case for many of your fellow CTers.

Now moving on to your narrower issue, if the power was on in the building but someone was turning off the power only to the elevators for some unknown purpose.  We know - despite the fact that you keep ignoring it - that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator to the top floor.  This demonstrates the freight elevator was functional a few minutes after the assassination.  When Mooney arrives a freight elevator is back on the ground floor meaning one had to come back down.  So there is a second example of the freight elevator being functional.  And then Mooney takes the elevator to second floor.  A third example of that elevator being functional.   

Tom relies upon Mooney as evidence of the power being turned off to the elevator.  Suggesting this was perhaps done to trap or delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor (presumably Oswald).  But we know a couple of things that makes that argument absurd.  First, Mooney was in an elevator heading UP.  The patsy they are trying to trap would have been in an elevator going DOWN.  Oswald is also already gone by that point.  He is not even in the building.  This takes places many minutes after the assassination.  And is Mooney trapped or delayed by this power outage to his elevator which is the alleged purpose of turning the power off on Oswald?  No, the freight elevator has no door.  He just steps off and continues on his way.  What a plan! To trap the patsy in an elevator with no doors.  Imagine the fantasy conspirator on the first floor hanging around while the police rush in turning the power off in plain sight to an elevator going up (with a police officer inside!) in attempt to trap the patsy who is supposed to be coming down.  It's absurd and laughable.  You should be ashamed and beg the forgiveness of fellow members for wasting our time.  Mooney simply didn't know how to properly operate that elevator.  Once his passengers get off he doesn't have a clue how it works.  He assumes (one of your favorite words) that the power is off because he can't get the elevator back in motion and a conspiracy myth is born.  And wasn't it nice of the police in those days to give an elevator ride to ladies into a building with a possible active shooter?  The good old days.  Some tough people back then who went back to work after someone just shot the president from their building and was on the loose.

[Richard Smith]

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second.

Please let's have your in depth analysis of how Mooney got to second if he didn't know how to work the controls.

Feel free to use your finger if that helps you.

He had folks on the elevator who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  Once he lets them off he is suddenly stuck because it is not a typical elevator.  Now let's have your analysis of how the elevator gets from the first to the second floor if its power is turned off.  And how the conspirators intended to trap the patsy in an elevator with no doors.  And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN.  And how long after the assassination this Mooney elevator trip occurs.  10 minutes or more?  Your conspirator stands around in the first floor while the police are walking past for that long fiddling with the power long after the patsy is gone.   Nerves of steel but for no apparent purpose.

[Richard Smith]

Where did you put your finger?

No doubt what Mooney said, he got to second by using the controls. Then power was cut.

So the power was on when he took the elevator from the first to second floor but was cut at the exact instant his passengers got off?  The ones who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  What a coincidence.  Mooney attributes his inability to get the elevator to work to a power outage because he can't get it to move.   He simply didn't understand the nuances of the elevator.  He may simply have not closed the gate properly and didn't realize it because he was unfamiliar with that elevator.  It's a perfectly plausible explanation from the facts.   And makes a lot more sense than an intentional cut to the elevator from someone in the building for no apparent reason.

[Bill Chapman]

He had folks on the elevator who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  Once he lets them off he is suddenly stuck because it is not a typical elevator.  Now let's have your analysis of how the elevator gets from the first to the second floor if its power is turned off.  And how the conspirators intended to trap the patsy in an elevator with no doors.  And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN.  And how long after the assassination this Mooney elevator trip occurs.  10 minutes or more?  Your conspirator stands around in the first floor while the police are walking past for that long fiddling with the power long after the patsy is gone.   Nerves of steel but for no apparent purpose.

"And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN."

Too funny, Richard! I can just see Oswald waving (and smirking) at the cops like Fernando Rey in The French Connection as the cop Hackman realizes he's been caught with his pants down.

[John Iacoletti]

I'll try again.  Some CTers - perhaps not yourself although it is difficult to follow since being a contrarian you won't take any position - contend that the power was off in the building based on the testimony of Hine.  Not just the elevators.  Repeat not just the elevators.  Follow along with your finger if that helps your reading comprehension.  So if the Hertz sign is on the same power source then it demonstrates that the power did not go off at 12:30 when CTers interpret Hine to make this claim because we can clearly see it is functional at that moment.  This has nothing to do with the elevators except they would not be operational if the power was off to the entire building.   Got that?  The power outage under discussion is broader than just the elevators.  There can be examples that go to the power outage and examples that go more specifically to just the elevators. You keep interjecting yourself in this discussion and trying to limit it to the elevators when that is not the case for many of your fellow CTers.

"Many of your fellow CTers" is just your euphemism for Richard's latest strawman.  Who suggested a building-wide power outage?  And you're so busy being an arrogant ass with your "follow along with your finger" nonsense, that you didn't even realize that Tom showed that the sign was on a completely separate meter and circuit.  It had nothing to do with the building power.

Now moving on to your narrower issue, if the power was on in the building but someone was turning off the power only to the elevators for some unknown purpose.  We know - despite the fact that you keep ignoring it - that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator to the top floor.

So what?  That somehow shows that the elevators had power when Mooney and Adams tried them?  By your twisted logic, power outages never occur anywhere, because the power is on at other times.

Tom relies upon Mooney as evidence of the power being turned off to the elevator.  Suggesting this was perhaps done to trap or delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor (presumably Oswald).

LOL.  And you lecture me about reading comprehension.  Go ahead, quote Tom Sorenson ever saying that power to the elevators was turned off to delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor.

  But we know a couple of things that makes that argument absurd.

Your strawman arguments usually are.

  First, Mooney was in an elevator heading UP.  The patsy they are trying to trap would have been in an elevator going DOWN.  Oswald is also already gone by that point.  He is not even in the building.

...and how do you know that?  Mary Bledsoe?  How did you even determine that it was "many minutes after the assassination" when Mooney tried the elevator?  How many minutes?

And is Mooney trapped or delayed by this power outage to his elevator

Of course he is.  Duh.  It takes more time to use the stairs.

Imagine the fantasy conspirator on the first floor hanging around while the police rush in turning the power off in plain sight to an elevator going up

So now the breaker box is "in plain sight" of the elevators on the first floor.  This just keeps getting better and better.

It's absurd and laughable.

I agree.  Your "fantasy conspirators" strawman are always absurd and laughable.  But you never deviate from the same old shtick.

Mooney simply didn't know how to properly operate that elevator.

He said "we had no more power on the elevator".  He didn't say he couldn't figure out how to work it.  He had just operated it to get to the second floor.  Do you think he forgot how to push a button?

But wait, are you also going to claim that Adams also didn't have a clue how to work an elevator that she used all the time in the building where she worked?