Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

[Alan Ford]

"Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything...

We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."                        Danny Arce

"...he was awful quiet."  Mrs D. Baker

"Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well.
You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself..."    Jack Dougherty
 

"Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say."      Charles Givens

No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't.   Harold Norman

If there is one constant in this labyrinthine mess it is the almost universal description of Oswald as a quiet loner who didn't talk and when he did it was a barely audible mumble. Someone who hated being with other people and when he was would have his head buried in a newspaper as a way of avoiding unnecessary contact with those around him. To most he was just quiet and withdrawn but to anyone who tried to interact with him he was extremely anti-social:

"Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would."

"Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze..."      Geneva Hine

Imagine trying to interact with someone who refuses to acknowledge your existence. How insulting and aggressive is that? Even when he did respond it would be as inaudible mumble:

"Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?
 Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.
 Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him
 Mr. PIPER. Yes.
 Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?
 Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking."     Eddie Piper

It was generally agreed he wasn't a "People Person"

"At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone."       Mrs Robert Reid

But now we're supposed to believe that, because it was a sunny day and the President was passing by, Oswald was out on the steps with the rest gang chatting away with his good buddy William Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it."     William Shelley

I get the impression Oswald was utterly contemptuous of his work colleagues who he believed were all beneath him. So much so he wouldn't even pretend to make so much as the slightest effort to show any mannersl. He was so convinced of his superiority he could treat those around him like the dirt he thought they were. Ironically, his quietness didn't make him invisible, quite the contrary, in the tight-knit, gossip-prone, enclosed world of the TSBD he would have stood out head and shoulders above everyone else.
To believe this socially incompetent, arrogant loner would spend one second in the company of his work colleagues if he didn't have to is absurd. If Oswald watched the motorcade it was from some dark quiet corner where nobody else would think to be.

Thank you, Mr O'Meara, for lending powerful credence to the idea that the quiet loner Mr Oswald

-------------would have been uncomfortable standing out on the steps with the other folks awaiting the motorcade
-------------would have instead remained inside, periodically checking on the scene outside by looking through the glass front door
-------------would have left it until the last moment to go through that door, take his position in a dark quiet corner and watch JFK pass
-------------would have gone all but unnoticed by those already standing out there, whose attention was by then focused entirely on the motorcade (and, a few seconds later, the pandemonium).
 

[Dan O'meara]

Does it have some kind of relevance that it's people he works with?  What, he was only an "contemptuous, arrogant loser" while working?

Yes John, the whole point I'm making revolves around the relationship between Oswald and his work colleagues as revealed in the various testimonies. He is not stood on the steps with friends from his school days or old teachers. He is not stood on the front steps with old army buddies or family. In the scenario being suggested he is stood outside with work colleagues, specifically Bill Shelley, watching the motorcade pass by. The point I was making referred to the unlikelihood Oswald would have joined in with such a thing (obviously you twisted it into me saying it couldn't possibly have happened but this has become a feature of your campaign to misrepresent what I'm saying). I cannot explain it any clearer than this - the point being I was making is absolutely relevant, and specific to, his work colleagues. It is unlikely Oswald would have joined his work colleagues on the steps because of his documented relationship with his work colleagues. How this was not clear to you I don't know, I can only assume you don't read my posts correctly.

"Exactly.  You're projecting your attitudes onto them."

I use the word 'antisocial' to describe Oswald's behaviour and you accuse me of 'projecting my attitudes'. Here is the dictionary definition of the word 'antisocial' -"not sociable or wanting the company of others". And you don't think that describes your friend Oswald? I'll only use a few of quotes to make my point:

"... he didn't associate with us too much ... He didn't like to talk too much to us"
" Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone."
"We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds."

These quotes, and others, from his work colleagues clearly describe someone who is unsociable and not "wanting the company of others" but I have no doubt in your twisting misrepresentation you will find a way to disagree. I stand by the use of the word 'antisocial', not as something I'm projecting but as an accurate description of Oswald's behaviour as described by his work colleagues. I don't expect you to retract your accusation.

" Did any of his work colleagues describe him as arrogant and contemptuous?"

No John, not one of his colleagues used the words 'contemptuous' or 'arrogant' to describe him. But I never said they did, those are my words to describe him (more misrepresentation). I was struck by the testimony of Geneva Hines, who specifically describes Oswald as 'unfriendly', and in which she described trying to interact with him by saying "Good Morning" or "Hello", the usual pleasantries normal people use on a daily basis, and how he would literally blank her existence, as if she wasn't worth responding to. I used the word 'contempt' to describe this behaviour. The dictionary definition of 'contempt'  - "the feeling that a person or a thing is worthless or beneath consideration".
This is the perfect word to describe Oswald. In your defence of him you have this to say -"Well, since you asked, "contempt" is the last word I would use. Perhaps if they sneered at me and said "what's it to you?" or if they "sarcastically" said caustic things like "I wonder if you're familiar with the concept".  But not saying anything?"
I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of 'contempt'. It appears not. To treat someone with contempt is to treat them as if they're not there - exactly how Oswald treats Hines.

"Is somebody likely to notice a shy, nonsocial person standing *behind* them at the moment a parade is passing in front of them?  I would say no."

It seems you would like to believe Oswald's unwillingness to talk to people makes him invisible but this is not the case. In her excellent 'Living History' interview, Karen Westbrook Scranton makes the following point:

"He wasn't terribly friendly but we, being teenagers, we saw this guy, all alone and we felt sorry for him. We just thought 'He doesn't have any friends' or 'He doesn't make friends very easily', so he was very much in our scope even though there wasn't any kind of a friendship between any of us." (13:22 to 13:41)

Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?) and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

My point, all along, was that I felt it very unlikely the antisocial and unfriendly Oswald would join his colleagues on the steps. The fact that not one witness places him there strengthens this observation. Oswald was not invisible, his antisocial behaviour made him stand out.
You seem determined to place him on the steps for the motorcade, you must have some very strong evidence for doing so. I will keep looking until I find it.

[Alan J. Ford]

To Mr. Iacoletti’s point/observation at, quote, “Behind”

It certainly correlates with the time-sequence movements of Mr. Jarman & Mr. Norman’s return inside the building at the rear entrance at 12:25PM, where the wrongly accused actually described the tandem walking together from his vantage point in the Domino Room (first floor lunchroom).  It would be virtually impossible for anyone, let alone the wrongly accused, if they really were six stories up in the front of the building to guess, let alone actually see, anyone else return into the building six stories below at the rear of the building.

By the time the wrongly accused left the Domino Room and went out the front-entrance to view the presidential-parade, given his reluctance to engage and/or mingle, it would be characteristic of him to take up a rear position "Behind" others, drawing less attention as possible.

[Royell Storing]

  This "stuff" about Oswald being "shy" is pure Baloney. Oswald was on RADIO extolling his political opinions along with standing on street corners handing out controversial literature to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that crossed his path. Oswald was Not "Shy". Oswald was Verbose whenever he wanted to be and also made his presence Known at a time and place of his choosing.  Stop with this Dr Phil routine.

[Alan Ford]

Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?) and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

My point, all along, was that I felt it very unlikely the antisocial and unfriendly Oswald would join his colleagues on the steps. The fact that not one witness places him there strengthens this observation. Oswald was not invisible, his antisocial behaviour made him stand out.

Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?

 

[Thomas Graves]

Officer Baker charged up those front steps barely half a minute after the last shot. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous figure dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

Mr Roy Truly charged up the steps after Officer Baker. Presumably lots of people noticed this highly visible and conspicuous boss-man dashing past them, right?

Can you give us their names?

While you're at it, perhaps you can also give us the names of the many people congregated at the front entrance who noticed the 'not invisible' Mr Oswald leaving the building several minutes after the assassination? If you can't, then do you conclude that he never left the building?

Dear Alan,

There was a lot of stuff happening at the time, so it's understandable that no one on the steps remembered seeing, or volunteered that they'd seen, Officer Marion Baker and TSBD manager Truly run up the steps about 30 seconds after the third and final shot.

Do you think Baker sprinted to the corner to ask the other policeman down there if he'd counted how many pigeons had taken flight?

Do you think Couch-Darnell was altered?

Do you think we in the U.S. live in a FBI and CIA-controlled Deep State?

How many people do you figure were involved in the assassination and "the cover up"?

--  MWT 

PS  Mr. Oswald probably left the building by the loading dock door.

[John Iacoletti]

Yes John, the whole point I'm making revolves around the relationship between Oswald and his work colleagues as revealed in the various testimonies. He is not stood on the steps with friends from his school days or old teachers. He is not stood on the front steps with old army buddies or family. In the scenario being suggested he is stood outside with work colleagues, specifically Bill Shelley, watching the motorcade pass by. The point I was making referred to the unlikelihood Oswald would have joined in with such a thing (obviously you twisted it into me saying it couldn't possibly have happened but this has become a feature of your campaign to misrepresent what I'm saying).

I didn’t accuse you of saying that it was impossible — I’m pointing out that your claim that it is “unlikely” is unfounded. As I pointed out, watching a parade while standing behind other people watching a parade is not a social activity. You tried to turn this into an Oswald-Shelley chat session.

But you went way beyond trying to make a case that Oswald wasn’t social enough to be standing outside. You tried to use his reluctance to talk to people to automatically label him as contemptuous and superior.

I use the word 'antisocial' to describe Oswald's behaviour and you accuse me of 'projecting my attitudes'. Here is the dictionary definition of the word 'antisocial' -"not sociable or wanting the company of others". And you don't think that describes your friend Oswald?

Why do you describe him as my “friend”? Because I take issue with your armchair psychoanalysis of somebody you never met? Or are you being contemptuous and superior?

These quotes, and others, from his work colleagues clearly describe someone who is unsociable and not "wanting the company of others" but I have no doubt in your twisting misrepresentation you will find a way to disagree. I stand by the use of the word 'antisocial', not as something I'm projecting but as an accurate description of Oswald's behaviour as described by his work colleagues. I don't expect you to retract your accusation.

I didn’t misrepresent or twist anything you said. You didn’t merely say he was anti-social.

No John, not one of his colleagues used the words 'contemptuous' or 'arrogant' to describe him. But I never said they did, those are my words to describe him (more misrepresentation). I was struck by the testimony of Geneva Hines, who specifically describes Oswald as 'unfriendly', and in which she described trying to interact with him by saying "Good Morning" or "Hello", the usual pleasantries normal people use on a daily basis, and how he would literally blank her existence, as if she wasn't worth responding to.

Ding ding ding. There’s the projection.

I used the word 'contempt' to describe this behaviour.

And therein lies the problem. You’re not describing the behavior, you’re describing what you decided the behavior means.

I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of 'contempt'. It appears not.

I wonder if you realize how contemptuous you are being in this discussion. You missed the part of the definition about being scornful.

It seems you would like to believe Oswald's unwillingness to talk to people makes him invisible

No. Where did you get that idea?

but this is not the case. In her excellent 'Living History' interview, Karen Westbrook Scranton makes the following point:

"He wasn't terribly friendly but we, being teenagers, we saw this guy, all alone and we felt sorry for him. We just thought 'He doesn't have any friends' or 'He doesn't make friends very easily', so he was very much in our scope even though there wasn't any kind of a friendship between any of us." (13:22 to 13:41)

Note: another coworker who doesn’t describe him as contemptuous, superior, or even unfriendly.

Oswald's antisocial behaviour made him stand out in the TSBD. He wasn't some invisible figure standing behind everyone (how do you know where he was standing by the way?)

I don’t. I’m responding to your argument that he was too antisocial to be standing outside during the motorcade. Even though standing outside during the motorcade isn’t any more social than sitting in a lunchroom where other people are present.

and you completely ignore all the people coming up the steps because it suits you to do so.

Ignoring them how? Just because they didn’t mention seeing him? How many people mentioned Roy Lewis or Jeraldean Reid? Or as Alan aptly noted, Officer Baker.

You seem determined to place him on the steps for the motorcade, you must have some very strong evidence for doing so. I will keep looking until I find it.

Not at all. I don’t know where he was. But you seem mighty determined to keep him away from there with rhetorical and presumptive arguments .