Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

[Ray Mitcham]

All good here Ray. 

Thanks for the reply, Colin.

[Dan O'meara]

No, there is no mystery whatsoever: Mr Shelley knows where he was standing in relation to Mr Lovelady--------west of him--------and that's how he knows he was not in view of the camera.

As usual you have completely made something up out of thin air and presented it as a fact. Nowhere does Shelley state that he is stood west of Lovelady. If you have a quote for this please supply it. If you any quote that specifically puts Shelley to the right /west of Lovelady please provide it. 

If he had been standing where you------------in your desperate Doylesque effort to magic him into Mr Molina so you can magic Ms Stanton into Prayer Man--------------think you see him in Altgens, he would not be stating categorically that he was not in view of the camera.

Once again I'm having to deal with something you've completely made up. Show where I have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway (Shelley) is Joe Molina. Joe Molina is the man in the white shirt, stood on the top landing/step, with both his arms raised as he shields his eyes. The same man you insist is Sarah Stanton (this will go down as the worst piece of analysis in the history of JFK research and is genuinely embarrassing).
Just to be clear where I stand on the Altgens 6 picture - the man nearest the glass door wearing a dark suit and tie whose face is half in shadow is Bill Shelley. The man stood to his right wearing the white shirt with both arms raised shielding his eyes is Joe Molina. The man stood one step below, slightly to Molina's right, is Otis Williams. Billy Lovelady, as I'm sure even you would agree, is the man stood to the left of these three men as we look at the pic.
Sarah Stanton is not shown in this picture.

Here's where Mr Frazier places Mr Shelley in his WC testimony: "standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there". And before you throw more nonsense at us by suggesting Mr Frazier might mean the east wall, he makes it clear he means the same wall Mr Lovelady was nearest to.

The problem with Frazier's testimony is that it's not true:

Mr. BALL - You went out there after you quit work?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, for lunch.
Mr. BALL - About 12 o'clock?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?
Mr. FRAZIER - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.
Mr. FRAZIER - O.K.
Mr. BALL - In the picture that would show you about there, would it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, was standing right in there.
Mr. BALL - Right in there?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.
Mr. BALL - There was a roof over your head, was there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Frazier places himself one step down and next to the central railing. He states he was stood there 'until the parade came by'. We know from Altgens this is not true. Frazier is not seen in the Wiegman film either. He shows up about 30 seconds after the assassination in Darnell (it's possible he stood there before the motorcade passed but I've not seen evidence for this). We have photographic/video evidence that Frazier's testimony concerning the time of the assassination is unreliable.

Here's what Mr Shelley himself says, in the March 64 document you love cherry-picking quotes from, about Mr Lovelady's position in relation to him: "seated on the entrance steps just in front of me". This, again, places Mr Shelley unequivocally on the west side of the entranceway. Whereas your Shelley-in-Altgens is on the east side. (So... you have transposed Ms Stanton from east to west and Mr Shelley from west to east. A classic double Doyle maneuver!)

Utter made-up nonsense yet again. Shelley states he is stood just outside the glass door. This is a central position, neither east nor west. If Lovelady is sat in front of him please explain how this 'unequivovally' places Shelley on the west side. If this is something you've just made up don't bother explaining.

Furthermore! Mr Lovelady-----------who, like Mr Shelley-----------will have seen the Altgens photograph many times by Jan 64, and who was very soon after the assassination shown an FBI blow-up of it, never once indicates that he can see, or thinks he can see, Mr Shelley in the photograph. He only mentions the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor. Again, the simple reason is: he, like Mr Shelley, knows that Mr Shelley is not in view of the camera.

Please provide the quote where Lovelady is asked whether Shelley is in Altgens 6. Is he ever asked about it?

Again I challenge you: show us the lady shielding her eyes who works on the second floor you think Mr Lovelady means!

The only 'lady shielding her eyes' on the TSBD steps in the Altgens pic has already identified. Maddie Reese. Lovelady has made a mistake placing her on the second floor when she works on the third. He obviously doesn't know her that well, he never refers to her by name and she never refers to him. It's a simple mistake. Maddie Reese is the only female TSBD employee on the steps shielding her eyes in Altgens. You must drop this thing about identifying Joe Molina as Sarah Stanton, it' really embarrassing.

[Dan O'meara]

Thanks for the info Alan. By the way any other poster unable to load my links?

Hi Ray, just to let you know I've had no problem opening your links.

[Alan Ford]

Boy oh boy, there you go again...

As usual you have completely made something up out of thin air and presented it as a fact. Nowhere does Shelley state that he is stood west of Lovelady. If you have a quote for this please supply it. If you any quote that specifically puts Shelley to the right /west of Lovelady please provide it.

Already done----------but, just like the old Mr Doyle, you don't like inconvenient facts that get in the way of your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation.

Mr Shelley says he is not in view of the camera. The man you are saying is Mr Shelley is in view of the camera. Therefore the man you are saying is Mr Shelley is not Mr Shelley.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Once again I'm having to deal with something you've completely made up. Show where I have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway (Shelley) is Joe Molina.

Sure---------as soon as you show where I have argued that you have argued that the man in the suit in the doorway is Mr Molina.

You're mistaking Mr Molina for Mr Shelley because you need Mr Molina to be Mr Shelley in order to keep alive your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Utter made-up nonsense yet again. Shelley states he is stood just outside the glass door.

Naughty naughty!

March 18 FBI statement: "I was standing just outside the glass doors of the entrance"

WC testimony: Mr. BALL - You were standing where? / Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.

 

Compare Mr Molina (WC testimony):

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

This is a central position, neither east nor west. If Lovelady is sat in front of him please explain how this 'unequivovally' places Shelley on the west side.

The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

Please provide the quote where Lovelady is asked whether Shelley is in Altgens 6. Is he ever asked about it?

Mr Shelley himself was asked about it, and he gave a clear answer: I was not in view of the camera. You don't like his answer because it ruins your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation? Not my problem!

As for Mr Lovelady, he points out the lady working on the second floor because (as he states) she can vouch for his presence on the steps. You think if he could see Mr Shelley-----------whom he otherwise mentions every time he talks about who was with him on the steps-----------in the photograph he would fail to mention that fact?

Of course you do, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

The only 'lady shielding her eyes' on the TSBD steps in the Altgens pic has already identified. Maddie Reese. Lovelady has made a mistake placing her on the second floor when she works on the third. He obviously doesn't know her that well, he never refers to her by name and she never refers to him. It's a simple mistake. Maddie Reese is the only female TSBD employee on the steps shielding her eyes in Altgens. You must drop this thing about identifying Joe Molina as Sarah Stanton, it' really embarrassing.

What's embarrassing is that you can't find the woman from the second floor whom Mr Lovelady can see in the Altgens photograph. All you can do is reject what he is saying on entirely makey-uppey grounds because it doesn't fit your mad Doyle theory that Prayer Man is a fat woman smoking a cigarette and wearing a wig in a professional situation. 

Keep up your groundbreaking work!

[Dan O'meara]

The Hughes film shows Mr Lovelady having stood up for the limousine's arrival. He is right over by the west column of the entranceway. This places Mr Shelley unequivocally (or rather: unequivovally) on the west side of the entranceway.

Get it now? Of course you don't, because you're the new Mr Doyle!

According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was on the top step 'to the far right against the wall of the entranceway' and that at that time Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton were stood with him.

It's really nice of you to make my arguments for me but I can manage without your help. You have just placed Sarah Stanton on the west side of the entranceway. Looking forward to see what you make up to get out of this one.

 

[Alan Ford]

According to your own logic this places Sarah Stanton 'unequivocally' on the west side of the entranceway, just as I've been saying all along.

Lovelady states that at the time the motorcade passed he was on the top step 'to the far right against the wall of the entranceway' and that at that time Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton were stood with him.

Another post from you that is positively Doyle-esque in its shameless dishonesty and reality denial! 

Mr Lovelady sees Ms Stanton standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, and accordingly names her (along with Mr Shelley) as having been standing next to him. Not complicated!

[Dan O'meara]

Another post from you that is positively Doyle-esque in its shameless dishonesty and reality denial! 

Mr Lovelady sees Ms Stanton standing next to him in the Altgens photograph, and accordingly names her (along with Mr Shelley) as having been standing next to him. Not complicated!

More Fantasia Ford. Talking about the Hughes film then changing it to Altgens when it suits!
Not complicated when you can float around in a world where fact and fantasy are so interchangeable.