Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

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Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1197 on: February 04, 2021, 12:59:32 AM »
Well, it means that Captain Fritz's "claims 2nd Fl Coke when off came in" cannot be used as independent corroboration of Agent Bookhout's solo-report claim as to what Mr Oswald said----------------as it's actually derived from same.

Agreed, but it doesn't alter Bookhout's report, it just means Fritz can't be trusted.
The interesting thing about Bookhout's solo report is that he mentions Oswald had bought a coke before Baker and Truly came in. If Bookhout is a Hoaxer and making all this up why does he include this detail about Oswald having bought the coke only to have this refuted by his fellow Hoaxers, Baker and Truly

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1198 on: February 04, 2021, 04:08:01 AM »
I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes and don't really have a problem with that suggestion.
I don't know if that exonerates Fritz as a Hoaxer.

I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes

I believe that Fritz was at least senile. and possibly  in the early stages of dementia.   As a consequence he couldn't take accurate notes, so it's possible that he asked Bookhout if he could borrow the notes that he had taken.   This would explain why he said he didn't take notes at the time, and jotted them down later.    However, As I recall Hosty said in his book, that the typed up reports had to be filed within 24 hours of the interrogation and  any notes taken were to be destroyed.  If that is true, and Bookhout followed orders,  then Fritz must have copied Bookhout's notes on Saturday 11/23 / 63.   

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1199 on: February 04, 2021, 10:42:05 AM »
Agreed, but it doesn't alter Bookhout's report, it just means Fritz can't be trusted.

If Captain Fritz's 'notes' are derived from Agent Bookhout's report, then the former cannot be used as independent corroboration of the latter. The discrepancies between Bookhout solo and the earlier reports (Hosty solo, Bookhout-Hosty joint) remain radioactive.
 
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The interesting thing about Bookhout's solo report is that he mentions Oswald had bought a coke before Baker and Truly came in. If Bookhout is a Hoaxer and making all this up

He's not making it all up-----------he's merely taking what Mr Oswald really said (bought coke, down to 1, then outside = all PRE-assassination) and changing the timeframe to POST-assassination to fit it into the post-assassination lunchroom story

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why does he include this detail about Oswald having bought the coke

Not being pedantic here, Mr O'Meara, but the detail he's including is about Mr Oswald having claimed to have bought the coke. I'll return to this below.

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only to have this refuted by his fellow Hoaxers, Baker and Truly

Interesting point, and one lost on most CTers: if Mr Oswald really said what the Bookhout solo report says he did, then he confirmed a lunchroom encounter but not the lunchroom encounter that Officer Baker and Mr Truly would tell the WC about.

EXPLANATION A: Agent Bookhout just went for a straightforward transposition of Mr Oswald's claims, including the coke detail. Under pressure of circumstances, he didn't ponder the implications of including this detail.

EXPLANATION B: Retaining Mr Oswald's actual claim about buying the coke gets a double result: Mr Oswald confirms a lunchroom encounter, but does so in a way that makes him look a liar.

EXPLANATION C: Mr Oswald with a coke in hand may well have been an element in the original lunchroom story put out. E.g....... “The two men scrambled up the stairs to the second floor. As they made their way to the back stairway, the policeman saw Oswald standing beside a soft-drink machine, sipping from a coke bottle” (Washington Post, December 1).

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1200 on: February 04, 2021, 10:57:48 AM »
I have seen it convincingly argued elsewhere that Fritz copied Bookhout's notes

I believe that Fritz was at least senile. and possibly  in the early stages of dementia.   As a consequence he couldn't take accurate notes, so it's possible that he asked Bookhout if he could borrow the notes that he had taken.   This would explain why he said he didn't take notes at the time, and jotted them down later.    However, As I recall Hosty said in his book, that the typed up reports had to be filed within 24 hours of the interrogation and  any notes taken were to be destroyed.  If that is true, and Bookhout followed orders,  then Fritz must have copied Bookhout's notes on Saturday 11/23 / 63.

Captain Fritz didn't copy them, he listened to them. For example, on page 1 of his notes we find 'writing' spelled as 'wrighting'. No way would an FBI agent get that spelling wrong.

Online Zeon Mason

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1201 on: February 05, 2021, 12:44:20 AM »
Baker stated he did not draw his gun
out until he reached the 1st staircase

That’s likely the front staircase

Pauline Sanders noticed Baker as he ran right up the right side of those entrance steps, because Pauline was standing just to right side of the entrance door.

It’s implausible imo that Pauline Sanders would have failed to mention a detail such as a gun drawn by the the cop she observed.

Therefore, I’m going with a meeting of Baker and Oswald happening in the front foyer = “vestibule “ at the front staircase as Oswald was seen going TO the storage room by Baker.

Oswald still had on his brown shirt at this point, although it’s uncertain if the sleeves were still rolled up or rolled down. Baker thought it was a jacket.

Truly then entered, saw Baker with gun drawn at Oswald and then vouched for Oswald and advised Baker to follow Truly to the rear elevators and staircase if Baker wanted to get to the roof.

Oswald went back to the storage room. took OFF his brown shirt and then Oswald followed the path of Baker/Truly going thru the now opened countertop  but some 15 to 20 seconds later , such that Baker/Truly have ascended to the 2nd floor landing and out of LOS of Oswald.

Purpose of Oswalds trek across 1st floor to the rear staircase was to get another Dr. Peoper from the 2st floor machine.

However, the Dr,Peoper machine was either sold out or the power has gone out, and so Oswald goes up the rear staircase to go get a coke from the 2nd floor lunchroom.

He gets the coke, but dies not open it, and opts to return to the front foyer and storage room by cutting thru Mrs Reid’s office.

Thus the Mrs Reid meeting Oswald in T-shirt story thingy can be ipreserved “ “INTACT and SECURE” ! ( a phrase from “Fallout” episode of The Prisoner) :)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1202 on: February 05, 2021, 12:58:11 AM »

Therefore, I’m going with a meeting of Baker and Oswald happening in the front foyer = “vestibule “ at the front staircase as Oswald was seen going TO the storage room by Baker.


The "vestibule" is the small space next to the second floor lunchroom. This is from Truly's affidavit:

"2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door"


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )
« Reply #1203 on: February 05, 2021, 01:09:07 AM »
Therefore, I’m going with a meeting of Baker and Oswald happening in the front foyer = “vestibule “ at the front staircase as Oswald was seen going TO the storage room by Baker.

Oswald still had on his brown shirt at this point, although it’s uncertain if the sleeves were still rolled up or rolled down. Baker thought it was a jacket.

Truly then entered, saw Baker with gun drawn at Oswald

Why would Officer Baker draw his gun on someone in the front lobby?