A scientific look at the Single Bullet Theory.

[John Iacoletti]

There is evidence that he was planning to shoot the President (i.e. the evidence that he shot the President and the evidence that it was obviously planned).

Let's hear your "evidence that he shot the President" and "evidence that it was obviously planned" without any appeals to assumption.

Marina could only find one reason that he would do that: that he was not planning on ever returning (her 2013 letter that accompanied the sale of the ring).

Speculation is speculation no matter who is doing it.  Incidentally, I spent some time looking for the full text of this letter and was unable to find it.  Since you apparently have read it in order to summarize its contents, I would appreciate a link to it.  It's not that I don't trust your summaries.  Actually it IS that I don't trust your summaries.

  It is not difficult to connect those dots.

No, not when you have a predetermined conclusion and view every action through that filter.

You seem to use the word "assumption" for "evidence based conclusion".

No, I use "assumption" when the conclusion doesn't actually follow from the evidence.

  There is evidence that he ordered C2766,

Unscientific handwriting "analysis" of two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2 inch order coupon from microfilm that is now "missing".

that it was shipped to  Oswald's mail box,

There's no evidence of any particular package being shipped to "Oswald's mail box".  And even if there was, you have no evidence that Oswald ever picked up such a package.

that it was not returned,

What's your evidence that it was not returned?  What's your evidence that it was actually delivered anywhere?

that Oswald had his photo taken in the back yard shortly after the gun was shipped,

How does a photo with an unidentifiable rifle tell you anything about that particular rifle?

and that Oswald used that rifle to shoot Gen. Walker.

Does C2766 shoot steel-jacketed bullets?

That is sufficient evidence for a reasonable person to conclude that Oswald owned the MC.

Everybody thinks his own conclusions are "reasonable".

  You may not draw that conclusion. But your reluctance to conclude what other reasonable people would does not make it an assumption.

No, what makes it is an assumption is that you are assuming that rifle got delivered to PO Box 2915.  You are assuming that Oswald picked it up.  You are assuming that it's that rifle in the photo, and you are assuming that Oswald shot at General Walker with that rifle.  There is no evidence for any of these assumptions.

Bugliosi's words.

That is your evidence that Oswald told "provable lies"?   

Just one piece in the puzzle.

The correct answer is that the backyard photos tell you nothing about who killed Kennedy.

Well, there is the shipping order that was initialed by the person who was responsible for shipping.

Really?  Whose initials do you think you see on the "shipping order"?  And what shipping order?  You ever wonder why that person wasn't called up to testify?

What makes you think it was not shipped as the document says?

What I think is irrelevant.  What is your evidence that such a package went through the postal service?

Well, there were prints that were consistent with Oswald's on a part of the gun covered by the stock.

No, there actually were not.  You really should learn the evidence so that you don't keep misrepresenting it.

Oswald's statements to Marina.

Marina said a lot of things.  Is that the only evidence you have that he shot at Walker?  Do you also believe he took a gun to see Nixon on a day that Nixon wasn't even in the area?

Are you aware of some metallurgical analysis was conducted on the Walker bullet showing that it was steel?

Are you aware of any evidence prior to 11/22/63 that claimed it was copper-jacketed?  Does anyone think this looks like steel?



Walker said it wasn't the same bullet.  Why is "Marina said so" good enough for you, but not "Walker said so" or "Van Cleave & McElroy said so"? Special pleading?

Not to you.  But to other reasonable people, there is more than enough evidence to reach that conclusion.

But you haven't shown any evidence that he owned that rifle -- just a lot of handwaving.

There is evidence that it was mailed 20-Mar-63

There's no evidence that it was mailed at all.

and there is evidence  from the post office that it would normally have arrived in Dallas the next day.

What is this evidence?

   According to the post office system, a notice would have been placed in Oswald's box (2915).

Ok, where's the notice?

  Marina says Oswald bought a gun through the mail at about that time

Please cite.

and took a picture of Oswald with the gun that is identical to the C2766 MC.

On what basis did you decide that it's "identical"?

That is how we know it went through the mail.

Actually what we know is that you just made a bunch of unsupported claims.

There is evidence that the bullet found at Parkland was CE399.

What is this evidence?

  If someone who saw the bullet thought it was pointed, they were wrong.

Or you are.

It is a conclusion based on evidence made by reasonable people, which you do not happen to agree with. That does not make it an assumption.

No, it's a assumption because you haven't provided any supporting evidence that CE399 was involved in the assassination.  You are just assuming that it was because it fits your conclusion.

[John Iacoletti]

C2766 was shipped to Klein's by the supplier in February 1963.

Really?  The supplier disagrees with you.

[John Iacoletti]

Just once I'd like to see Andrew Mason acknowledge even one of the unsupported or outright false statements he has made in the course of this one forum thread.  So far I count 23.

1. There is evidence that the MC was the murder weapon
2. There is evidence that it was fired on 22-11-63
3. There is evidence that it was fired from the SN
4. There is evidence that Oswald owned the MC
5. Oswald was last seen before the assassination on 6th floor of the TSBD
6. Oswald was the only employee to leave the TSBD before an attendance check was made
7. Oswald left the rooming house quickly after getting his handgun and a jacket
8. The rifle was mailed to A. Hidell to the post box that Oswald is connected to,
9. It arrived before the attempt on Gen. Walker,
10. It was identical to the rifle seen in the backyard photos
11. At the Texas Theater Oswald resists arrest
12. pulls a gun on the arresting officer
13. During his interrogation, Oswald told one provable lie after another
14. Oswald's palm prints were on the stock
15. The envelope was stamped by Kleins stating that the order was filled
16. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.
17. CE 399 was found by a Parkland nurse
18. Frazier never said that the bag from the SN was not the same bag.
19. C2766 arrived at the Dallas post office and was picked up 5 days later.
20. A bullet that was fired from that rifle ended up in the car that was shot at
21. There is the shipping order that was initialed by the person who was responsible for shipping
22. There were prints that were consistent with Oswald's on a part of the gun covered by the stock
23. Marina says Oswald bought a gun through the mail at about that time

[Andrew Mason]

Just once I'd like to see Andrew Mason acknowledge even one of the unsupported or outright false statements he has made in the course of this one forum thread.  So far I count 23.

1. There is evidence that the MC was the murder weapon
2. There is evidence that it was fired on 22-11-63
3. There is evidence that it was fired from the SN
4. There is evidence that Oswald owned the MC

Already covered. You just don't accept the evidence.

5. Oswald was last seen before the assassination on 6th floor of the TSBD

Already covered. He was sighted by two workers on either the fifth or sixth floor at about 11:55. Howard Brennan said he saw a man that he later identified as Oswald on the sixth floor seconds before the shots were fired and then saw the rifle being fired.  Carolyn Arnold said she thought she may have seen Oswald on the second floor 15 minutes before the shooting but I don't find her evidence very persuasive: "she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM."  FBI statement 26-Nov-63

6. Oswald was the only employee to leave the TSBD before an attendance check was made

Truly did a roll call just before 1:00 pm and noticed that Oswald was the only TSBD employee missing. He reported to the Dallas Police that Oswald was missing.  Who else do you think was missing?

7. Oswald left the rooming house quickly after getting his handgun and a jacket

Earlene Roberts was there. You weren't. She thought he was in an unusual hurry (6 H 438):

"Mrs. ROBERTS. I had better back up a minute-he came home that Friday in an unusual hurry.
Mr. BALL. And about what time was this?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I...and I just looked up and I said, ?Oh, you are in a hurry.? He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and
stayed about 3 or 4 minutes."

8. The rifle was mailed to A. Hidell to the post box that Oswald is connected to,

What do you think the Klein's shipping order says?  It is pretty obvious that it says that the order was filled with C2766 and a scope shipped to Box 2915 Dallas, Texas.  That was Oswald's box. What is it, exactly, that makes you think it was shipped somewhere else or not shipped at all?

9. It arrived before the attempt on Gen. Walker,

The shipping order says it was shipped on March 20, 1963 and the post office official said it took a day to get from Chicago to Dallas.  Oswald's back-yard photos were taken in late March or early April, according to Marina Oswald.  The attempt on General Walker took place on April 10, 1963.

10. It was identical to the rifle seen in the backyard photos

In the sense that there is absolutely no feature of C2766 that is inconsistent with the rifle held by Oswald in the backyard photos.

11. At the Texas Theater Oswald resists arrest
12. pulls a gun on the arresting officer

What would you call reaching for your gun, holding it in your hand with your finger on the trigger, saying "Well, it's all over now" and struggling with the arresting police officer?

13. During his interrogation, Oswald told one provable lie after another

Well, for starters, that he didn't own a rifle; that he didn't carry a long package to work; and that he didn't have anything to do with the assassination of JFK or murder of Officer Tippit.

14. Oswald's palm prints were on the stock

I corrected that. They were on the part of the barrel covered by the stock, so he handled it when it was disassembled.

15. The envelope was stamped by Kleins stating that the order was filled

What do you think the envelope and the shipping order indicate? That the order was ignored and not filled?

16. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.

It was found on a stretcher. The WC concluded from all the evidence, that it was Connally's stretcher.

17. CE 399 was found by a Parkland nurse

Sorry, I thought Tomlinson was a nurse.  He was a maintenance worker.

18. Frazier never said that the bag from the SN was not the same bag.

Already dealt with. Where do you think he said the bag was not the same bag. Being unable to identify the bag shown by the investigator as the bag he saw is not the same as saying it was not the same bag. Why do you think he would be able to identify something that he admitted he didn't pay much attention to?

19. C2766 arrived at the Dallas post office and was picked up 5 days later.

That's an estimate that is based upon post office transportation and processing times.

20. A bullet that was fired from that rifle ended up in the car that was shot at

CE399 was either on that stretcher because it was brought in by someone in the President's limo or it was planted.  There is no evidence that it was planted.  The grooves on CE399 conclusively match grooves on bullets fired by the C2766 rifle.

21. There is the shipping order that was initialed by the person who was responsible for shipping

The document speaks for itself. Or are you suggesting that it was not made in the ordinary course of processing Oswald's order?

22. There were prints that were consistent with Oswald's on a part of the gun covered by the stock

You think the prints belonged to someone else? They were consistent with Oswald's prints. What are the chances that someone else put prints that were consistent with Oswald's on a gun that belonged to Oswald that was brought to the TSBD in a disassembled position in a bag that was consistent with the bag that Oswald was seen by two people to have been in his possession that morning of the assassination? (that's a rhetorical question).  That is enough to conclude that they were Oswald's prints.

23. Marina says Oswald bought a gun through the mail at about that time

I believe the Russian newspapers that he held were shown to be dated March 11 and March 24, 1963.  Marina was not sure when she took the photos when she met with the WC and said she didn't pay much attention to them. But later, to the FBI she said the photos were taken in late March or early April 1963 and were taken on a Sunday.  That puts it likely at March 31 or possibly April 7, 1963.

[John Mytton]

Just once I'd like to see Andrew Mason acknowledge even one of the unsupported or outright false statements he has made in the course of this one forum thread.  So far I count 23.

1. There is evidence that the MC was the murder weapon
2. There is evidence that it was fired on 22-11-63
3. There is evidence that it was fired from the SN
4. There is evidence that Oswald owned the MC
5. Oswald was last seen before the assassination on 6th floor of the TSBD
6. Oswald was the only employee to leave the TSBD before an attendance check was made
7. Oswald left the rooming house quickly after getting his handgun and a jacket
8. The rifle was mailed to A. Hidell to the post box that Oswald is connected to,
9. It arrived before the attempt on Gen. Walker,
10. It was identical to the rifle seen in the backyard photos
11. At the Texas Theater Oswald resists arrest
12. pulls a gun on the arresting officer
13. During his interrogation, Oswald told one provable lie after another
14. Oswald's palm prints were on the stock
15. The envelope was stamped by Kleins stating that the order was filled
16. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.
17. CE 399 was found by a Parkland nurse
18. Frazier never said that the bag from the SN was not the same bag.
19. C2766 arrived at the Dallas post office and was picked up 5 days later.
20. A bullet that was fired from that rifle ended up in the car that was shot at
21. There is the shipping order that was initialed by the person who was responsible for shipping
22. There were prints that were consistent with Oswald's on a part of the gun covered by the stock
23. Marina says Oswald bought a gun through the mail at about that time

 



JohnM

[John Mytton]

Really?  The supplier disagrees with you.

 

How on Earth do you know how Crescent and Kleins conducted their business?

The rifles were purchased in June 1962 and some months later Kleins received the stock, what's the problem?

JohnM

[John Iacoletti]

Already covered. You just don't accept the evidence.

No you didn't "cover" them at all.  You just claimed that there was evidence that the MC was the murder weapon, that it
was fired on 22-11-63, and that it was fired from the SN without actually specifying what that evidence is.

Already covered. He was sighted by two workers on either the fifth or sixth floor at about 11:55.

No, now we see the misrepresentation in action.  "Fifth or sixth floor" becomes "sixth floor", and Carolyn Arnold is ignored.

Howard Brennan said he saw a man that he later identified as Oswald on the sixth floor seconds before the shots were fired and then saw the rifle being fired.

Howard Brennan failed to identify Oswald on 11/22/63, even after seeing him on television and in the rigged lineup.  And he said he did not see the rifle discharge.  Oops, there's another false claim.

  Carolyn Arnold said she thought she may have seen Oswald on the second floor 15 minutes before the shooting but I don't find her evidence very persuasive:

Of course you don't.  How about Piper seeing Oswald on the first floor at noon, or Shelley seeing Oswald on he first floor by the telephone at 10 or 15 minutes before 12, or Givens' original report of seeing Oswald reading the newspaper in the domino room at 11:50?

So when we actually deconstruct it, your claim that "Oswald was last seen before the assassination on 6th floor of the TSBD" is just flat out wrong.

Truly did a roll call just before 1:00 pm and noticed that Oswald was the only TSBD employee missing.

Not only does Truly not mention a roll call -- he doesn't even say that Oswald was the only one missing.  Your statement is patently false.

Mr. BALL. Now, you recall that in your testimony before the Commission you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised Captain Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. And in order to place the time of it, was it before or after the rifle had been found on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, but when told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief Lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding him and then said, "Let's go up and tell Captain Fritz."
Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?
Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.
Mr. BALL. But walking which way?
Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?
Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.

He reported to the Dallas Police that Oswald was missing.  Who else do you think was missing?

What other TSBD employees were missing after the shooting?  Jack Charles Cason, Gloria Jean Holt, Sharon Simmons Nelson, Bonnie Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. Donald Baker, Judy Marie Johnson, Stella Mae Jacob, Charles Givens, Virginia H. Barnum, Vida Lee Whately, Warren Caster, Spaudlin Jones, Herbert L. Junker, Mrs. Helen Palmer, Franklin Kaiser, Vickie Davis, Dottie Lovelady, Mrs. Rudell Parsons, Joe Bergen, Maury Brown, John Langston

Earlene Roberts was there. You weren't. She thought he was in an unusual hurry (6 H 438):

You said "after getting his handgun".  Are you claiming Earlene Roberts reported him getting his handgun?

What do you think the Klein's shipping order says?

There is no "shipping order".  I think you're referring to an "order blank".

  It is pretty obvious that it says that the order was filled with C2766 and a scope shipped to Box 2915 Dallas, Texas.

Where do you see the word "shipped" on your order blank?

and the post office official said it took a day to get from Chicago to Dallas.

Did you also read the part where your (FBI informant) post office official said "I have no idea when it was mailed there".  If the post office had any record of shipment he would have had an idea.

In the sense that there is absolutely no feature of C2766 that is inconsistent with the rifle held by Oswald in the backyard photos.

Your claim was that they were "identical".  All this means is that they could be the same weapon.

What would you call reaching for your gun, holding it in your hand with your finger on the trigger,

What is your evidence that Oswald held it in his hand with his finger on the trigger?

saying "Well, it's all over now"

Why did not another single person in the theater hear this?

and struggling with the arresting police officer?

What probable cause did they have to arrest him for murder?

Well, for starters, that he didn't own a rifle;

Circular.  You're assuming that he owned a rifle and using that as a basis to claim he lied.

that he didn't carry a long package to work;

Fritz claimed that he "denied that he had brought the long package described by Mr. Frazier and his sister".  First of all, how did Fritz describe this package to Oswald?  Or did he just show him CE 142?  Who knows?

and that he didn't have anything to do with the assassination of JFK or murder of Officer Tippit.

Also circular.  You said "provable lies".  Or at least you repeated Bugliosi saying that.

I corrected that. They were on the part of the barrel covered by the stock, so he handled it when it was disassembled.

No you actually didn't correct that.  It's still not correct.  What do you mean "they"?  What "prints" do you think were found?

What do you think the envelope and the shipping order indicate?

You said that the envelope that the order coupon was supposedly mailed in was "stamped by Kleins stating that the order was filled".  Show me the stamp.

It was found on a stretcher. The WC concluded from all the evidence, that it was Connally's stretcher.

What evidence?  Tomlinson said it was the other stretcher.  They just claimed he was mistaken.  Their conclusion was just an assumption.  Like yours are.

Already dealt with. Where do you think he said the bag was not the same bag.

Did you read the Anderton memo that I helpfully posted 8 days ago?  Or are you just going to ignore everything and continue to repeat the same false claims?

Being unable to identify the bag shown by the investigator as the bag he saw is not the same as saying it was not the same bag.

He said it was definitely not the one he had observed in the possession of Oswald.

That's an estimate that is based upon post office transportation and processing times.

Bull.  You said the package was picked up 5 days later.  Post office transportation and processing times tell you nothing about when a package is picked up.  You invented that out of whole cloth.

CE399 was either on that stretcher because it was brought in by someone in the President's limo or it was planted.

You can't even prove that CE 399 was ever in the hospital at all.

The grooves on CE399 conclusively match grooves on bullets fired by the C2766 rifle.

So what?  That doesn't show that it was involved in the shooting at 12:30 on 11/22/63.  But you said "a bullet that was fired from that rifle ended up in the car that was shot at".  Do you think CE399 ended up in the car?

The document speaks for itself.

No it doesn't.  Show me where on that document you think you see the initials of "the person who was responsible for shipping", and identify that individual.

You think the prints belonged to someone else? They were consistent with Oswald's prints.

Again, what prints do you think were "on a part of the gun covered by the stock"?

What are the chances that someone else put prints that were consistent with Oswald's on a gun that belonged to Oswald that was brought to the TSBD in a disassembled position in a bag that was consistent with the bag that Oswald was seen by two people to have been in his possession that morning of the assassination? (that's a rhetorical question).

Obviously.  Since you have NFI that a gun was brought to the TSBD in a disassembled position in that bag that those two people said wasn't even the same bag.

  That is enough to conclude that they were Oswald's prints. I believe the Russian newspapers that he held were shown to be dated March 11 and March 24, 1963.  Marina was not sure when she took the photos when she met with the WC and said she didn't pay much attention to them. But later, to the FBI she said the photos were taken in late March or early April 1963 and were taken on a Sunday.  That puts it likely at March 31 or possibly April 7, 1963.

What does that have to do with your claim that "Marina says Oswald bought a gun through the mail at about that time"?  When did Marina say that he bought a gun through the mail at about that time?